infections which can survive a reinstall of Windows


Haydon

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From a parallel thread (that I did not want to derail)

It's very rare, but there are infections which can survive a reinstall of Windows. This is what we need to check for.

Let's discuss, I like to know more about Frankenstein viruses :eek1:
 

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If it's not hardware firmware infection then with full format malware cannot survive.
 

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    Windows 11
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If it's not hardware firmware infection then with full format malware cannot survive.
It depends how you do it - a "reset my pc" can still get virus infected e.g. if the recovery partition is infected in some way. Rare but not impossible.

The only sure fire way to reinstall is to boot from a usb drive created on a clean pc, then install from that deleting all partitions.
 

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    Yep, Laptop has one.
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It depends how you do it - a "reset my pc" can still get virus infected e.g. if the recovery partition is infected in some way. Rare but not impossible.

The only sure fire way to reinstall is to boot from a usb drive created on a clean pc, then install from that deleting all partitions.
When you select to delete everything when you reset your PC that does full format.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Pavilion
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 7 5700G
    Motherboard
    Erica6
    Memory
    Micron Technology DDR4-3200 16GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC671
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SyncMaster U28E590
    Screen Resolution
    3840 x 2160
    Hard Drives
    SAMSUNG MZVLQ1T0HALB-000H1
The only sure fire way to reinstall is to boot from a usb drive created on a clean pc, then install from that deleting all partitions.
Not even this is enough. Low level format of the full disk is needed to ensure that also all the nastiest bugs are gone.

Rootkits are very nasty too, only way to get rid of those is to either replace the chip or re-flash it. Some rootkits does so much damage that it is best to replace your whole computer. Luckily those are very rare.
 

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When you select to delete everything when you reset your PC that does full format.

The problem with "reset my pc" is that it rebuilds the os from the (allegedly) well protected winsxs folders on the C drive.

It has been known for these folders to become infected. I know it is extremely unlikely.

I am only going on reports of this on web - how much are they are true or an exaggeration, I cannot say. I have never experienced it personally.

However, why take the risk when using a usb drive created from a clean pc is truly guaranteed?
 

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro + others in VHDs
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Vivobook 14
    CPU
    I7
    Motherboard
    Yep, Laptop has one.
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Integrated Intel Iris XE
    Sound Card
    Realtek built in
    Monitor(s) Displays
    N/A
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Optane NVME SSD, 1 TB NVME SSD
    PSU
    Yep, got one
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    Bluetooth , wired
    Internet Speed
    72 Mb/s :-(
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    Other Info
    TPM 2.0
Not even this is enough. Low level format of the full disk is needed to ensure that also all the nastiest bugs are gone.

Rootkits are very nasty too, only way to get rid of those is to either replace the chip or re-flash it. Some rootkits does so much damage that it is best to replace your whole computer. Luckily those are very rare.
You can run diskpart clean all from usb drive. When you say chip - chip on drive (drives can be replaced) or chip on mobo?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro + others in VHDs
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Vivobook 14
    CPU
    I7
    Motherboard
    Yep, Laptop has one.
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Integrated Intel Iris XE
    Sound Card
    Realtek built in
    Monitor(s) Displays
    N/A
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Optane NVME SSD, 1 TB NVME SSD
    PSU
    Yep, got one
    Case
    Yep, got one
    Cooling
    Stella Artois
    Keyboard
    Built in
    Mouse
    Bluetooth , wired
    Internet Speed
    72 Mb/s :-(
    Browser
    Edge mostly
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    TPM 2.0
You can run diskpart clean all from usb drive. When you say chip - chip on drive (drives can be replaced) or chip on mobo?
Chip on anything that has a "brain" --> HDD, MB, GPU, Soundcard, Modem, Router...anything really...even your fridge, if it is internet connected.
 

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    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296 (Release Channel) / Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon
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    Lenovo A485
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    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
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    Lenovo (WiFi/BT module upgraded to Intel Wireless-AC-9260)
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    32GB
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    iGPU Vega 10
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    Realtek
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    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
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    PC/Desktop
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    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
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    Asus PRIME Z270-A
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    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
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    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
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    Integrated
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    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
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    WQHD 2560x1440
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    Logitech MX Keys
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    600/300Mbit
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    Edge (Cromium)
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    Other Info
    AC WiFi Card
Rootkits are very nasty too, only way to get rid of those is to either replace the chip or re-flash it. Some rootkits does so much damage that it is best to replace your whole computer. Luckily those are very rare.

MalwareBytes has a setting 'Scan for rootkits'. The default setting is OFF but you can turn it ON, and MalwareBytes would then scan for rootkits as part of a normal scan routine, i.e. without doing a restart.

Windows Defender has an 'off-line scan' that restarts the computer. I seem to remember (without being able to find a reference) that at least part of the reason for the restart was to find rootkits that start before Windows does, and to find other hard to find malware.

SEDE and others, care to discuss?
 

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    Windows 10 Pro
Give these guys a call, removes 99.99% of viruses and will even remove windows 95
 

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The thing with rootkits is that if it is well designed, you don't even know you have it, even with using all the scanners in the world.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296 (Release Channel) / Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo A485
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
    Motherboard
    Lenovo (WiFi/BT module upgraded to Intel Wireless-AC-9260)
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    iGPU Vega 10
    Sound Card
    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
    Screen Resolution
    FHD + FHD + 1440p
    Hard Drives
    Intel 660p m.2 nVME PCIe3.0 x2 512GB
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    65W
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    Thinkpad / Logitech MX Keys
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
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    600/300Mbit
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    TPM2.0: Enabled
    AMD-V: Enabled
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296(Release Preview Channel)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME Z270-A
    Memory
    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
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    Integrated
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    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
    Screen Resolution
    WQHD 2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    512GB ADATA SX8000NP NVMe PCIe Gen 3 x4
    PSU
    850W
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    Fractal Design Define 7
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    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
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    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Keyboard
    Logitech MX Keys
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Cromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    AC WiFi Card
Back when i went through Malware school to become a Malware Specialist this was the code we were taught !
  1. Refresh your PC
  2. Reset your PC
The first will re-install your operating system, but keep your personal files and settings, the second will both re-install your operating system and remove your personal files and settings. The second is the safer (but less convenient) option.

When an infection infects your computer, it does so by installing malicious files and processes and registry settings, so if you reset your computer to how it was when your OS was first installed, you will by default remove any changes that an infection might have made.

Now technically it is possible to infect the firmware on your computer, and since this boots before your OS, then it will survive a reset. However, infecting firmware is extremely difficult to do, and usually requires hands-on access, so unless you have allowed someone to have unsupervised access to your machine, it is highly unlikely that you will ever contract one.

From time to time you might read of some "new" method to infect firmware remotely, but I've been helping people remove infections on other forums for 20 years now, and I've yet to see anyone with a real firmware infection.

Don't use a "smartphone" myself, so can't say what's possible with them, or what reset options are available. I expect it will depend on what make of phone, and what OS it's running, but I would imagine that a phone reset would operate in a similar manner to Windows, and be equally effective at removing infections.

The one last thing to consider, is whether you have multiple devices which are synced, in which case if more than one of your devices has been infected, then after a reset your machine can become re-infected when it syncs with one of the other infected devices.
 

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The thing with rootkits is that if it is well designed, you don't even know you have it, even with using all the scanners in the world.

Like a rootkit that does not pop up windows, does not steal cpu cycles, does not do anything but phoning home, perhaps? But even merely phoning home can be detected?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
But even merely phoning home can be detected?
Indeed, rootkits are not designed to work by themselves, they still need malware/drivers, like superfish by Lenovo or Intel ME and AMD PSP. So while rootkits are bad, they are harmless, if they stay dormant or blocked by the security restrictions.

Back when i went through Malware school to become a Malware Specialist this was the code we were taught !
  1. Refresh your PC
  2. Reset your PC
That will not do much, if the recovery image is infected and "clean" stock install is bundled with nasties.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Home
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    AMD Ryzen 5 3600 & No fTPM (07/19)
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Indeed, rootkits are not designed to work by themselves, they still need malware/drivers, like superfish by Lenovo or Intel ME and AMD PSP. So while rootkits are bad, they are harmless, if they stay dormant or blocked by the security restrictions.


That will not do much, if the recovery image is infected and "clean" stock install is bundled with nasties.

MalwareBytes used to advertise 'behavioral analysis' that goes like this: a 'ghost' phones home which gets flagged as unusual behavior and the 'ghost' gets investigated.

That sounds good, but that also means that the 'ghost' does not get investigated as long as it remains quiet!
 
Last edited:

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System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
I did a bit of reading and much of it is above my level of understanding, but the link below appears to be on topic, scary :eek1:

"... circumvent operating system reinstall, but also hard disk replacement. The only way to remove such malware -- assuming victims know they have been compromised in the first place -- is to flash the firmware, a process not often conducted by typical users."

 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
assuming victims know they have been compromised in the first place -- is to flash the firmware, a process not often conducted by typical users."
Exactly! Can be nasty to find and nasty to get rid of. Most scanners can't even detect them unless used specialized equipment in offline mode and know what checksum a firmware dump should produce.
 

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    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296 (Release Channel) / Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon
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    Lenovo A485
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    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
    Motherboard
    Lenovo (WiFi/BT module upgraded to Intel Wireless-AC-9260)
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    iGPU Vega 10
    Sound Card
    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
    Screen Resolution
    FHD + FHD + 1440p
    Hard Drives
    Intel 660p m.2 nVME PCIe3.0 x2 512GB
    PSU
    65W
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    Thinkpad / Logitech MX Keys
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
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    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    SecureBoot: Enabled
    TPM2.0: Enabled
    AMD-V: Enabled
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296(Release Preview Channel)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME Z270-A
    Memory
    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
    Sound Card
    Integrated
    Monitor(s) Displays
    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
    Screen Resolution
    WQHD 2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    512GB ADATA SX8000NP NVMe PCIe Gen 3 x4
    PSU
    850W
    Case
    Fractal Design Define 7
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Keyboard
    Logitech MX Keys
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Cromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    AC WiFi Card
Sorry, typed the above message on mobile and for some reason the quote and my text ended up in same quote box. Can't edit the message on mobile to fix this. 😒


Never mind...











































































 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296 (Release Channel) / Linux Mint 21.3 Cinnamon
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo A485
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
    Motherboard
    Lenovo (WiFi/BT module upgraded to Intel Wireless-AC-9260)
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    iGPU Vega 10
    Sound Card
    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
    Screen Resolution
    FHD + FHD + 1440p
    Hard Drives
    Intel 660p m.2 nVME PCIe3.0 x2 512GB
    PSU
    65W
    Keyboard
    Thinkpad / Logitech MX Keys
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    SecureBoot: Enabled
    TPM2.0: Enabled
    AMD-V: Enabled
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 build 10.0.22631.3296(Release Preview Channel)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME Z270-A
    Memory
    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
    Sound Card
    Integrated
    Monitor(s) Displays
    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
    Screen Resolution
    WQHD 2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    512GB ADATA SX8000NP NVMe PCIe Gen 3 x4
    PSU
    850W
    Case
    Fractal Design Define 7
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Keyboard
    Logitech MX Keys
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Cromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    AC WiFi Card

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System One

  • OS
    Windows 10
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    Laptop
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    HP
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    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4800MQ CPU @ 2.70GHz
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    Product : 190A Version : KBC Version 94.56
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    16 GB Total: Manufacturer : Samsung MemoryType : DDR3 FormFactor : SODIMM Capacity : 8GB Speed : 1600
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    IDT High Definition Audio CODEC; PNP Device ID HDAUDIO\FUNC_01&VEN_111D&DEV_76E0
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