Solved Some guidance Please


Peterthegreat2

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Hi

I'm currently in the process of specifying a new build computer and as well as contemplating the precise specification of the hardware I have a couple of other concerns related to ongoing hardware maintenance.

I'm currently running a win 10 pro system that was a competent gaming machine when constructed some years ago. I am not involved in gaming but do have some video and photographic processing programs that are processor intensive. The Win 10 operating system derives from two previous upgrades starting from a win XP retail installation via win 7 pro. I am fairly certain my Win 10 pro installation is also a retail licence as a result. My data is stored on two 2Tb SSD drives. Personal information is stored in an encrypted file vault.

I have no experience of using a TPM although the current motherboard does include the option for a module to be installed.

The proposed specification of the new system is a Ryzen 7 5800X processor with a Nvidia 3060 GPU and a 500Gb M2 SSD for the operating system. My plan is to use the current SSD with the current Win 10 operating system with the new system to begin with and subsequently to clone this SSD on to the M2 SSD to become the new basis of the system. The old SSD will then become a backup disk. By doing this I expect (hope?) that my existing system which includes quite a number of fairly expensive programs will continue to run satisfactorily after the requisite motherboard drivers have been installed. This has been my fairly satisfactory experience in all my previous upgrades.

Now come the bits I need help on. The new motherboard will have a TPM module installed on the motherboard. Do I have the option not to use it on the Win 10 initial installation?

When I upgrade to Win 11 I will be obliged to use the TPM. I have done some reading up on this. As I understand the situation (which may not be correct) my operating system hard drive will be encrypted and the encryption key will be stored half on the TPM and half on the hard drive. Thus both parts of the key will be required in order to decrypt and run the operating system. So I have a number of questions.

1) will I still be able to produce a backup operating system disc by cloning the operating system disk?

2) What happens in the event of a motherboard or SSD failure? I know these events are rare but they do happen. Will this leave me having to start from square one and possibly finding the up-to-date data on the operating system M2 drive inaccessible?.

I would appreciate any authoritative guidance that is available on keeping my data and programs available in the event of some kind of fault even if it is as simple as a sudden power failure.

Many thanks

Peter
 

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SlicEnDicE

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First of all, you will not need a physical TPM chip installed on your new system, the motherboard has all that already built in in form of software TPM. Just need to enable it.

Secondly, adding/enabling TPM will not encrypt your drive in any way. What you are referring to is bitlocker. Bitlocker will work regardless of TPM or not. This feature you have to enable specifically in Windows in order to encrypt your drive.

If you already have bitlocker/drive encryption enabled, you need to first disable it before you move your OS to the new hardware, or nothing will work. After everything is setup properly, you can enable bitlocker again, which will now be tied to your new hardware. There is also another route you could take but that is much more complex.

If the SSD fail, it will become unrecoverable, but you can always have regular backups of your OS drive (and your data drives). I recommend Macrium Reflect for this, which has a free tier and is powerful enough for most home users.

Not sure I covered everything, but this is the most important parts in a nutshell.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro build 10.0.25262.1000 (Dev Channel)
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo A485
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
    Motherboard
    Lenovo
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    iGPU Vega 10
    Sound Card
    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
    Screen Resolution
    FHD + FHD + 1440p
    Hard Drives
    Intel 660p m.2 nVME PCIe3.0 x2 512GB
    PSU
    65W
    Keyboard
    Thinkpad
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Chromium)
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    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    WSA: Installed
    SecureBoot: Enabled
    TPM2.0: Enabled
    AMD-V: Enabled
    VBS: Enabled
    HVCI: Enabled
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME Z270-A
    Memory
    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
    Sound Card
    Integrated
    Monitor(s) Displays
    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
    Screen Resolution
    WQHD 2560x1440
    PSU
    850W
    Case
    Fractal Design Define 7
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Keyboard
    Logitech G710+
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Cromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    AC WiFi Card

Peterthegreat2

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Thank you

Technically accurate and complete articles are difficult to find now-a-days. I was only repeating what I had read in a search recently in order to educate myself.

I am not using bitlocker.

I presume I turn the TPM on/off in the Motherboard Bios.

Finally I'm not sure what TPM actually does. I fully understand that any function could be included in a separate chip or as a micro coded routine on the motherboard. Is there any article you can refer me to that clearly explains what TPM is and why Win 11 requires it?

Thanks again

Peter
 

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  • OS
    Win 10 pro

SlicEnDicE

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I presume I turn the TPM on/off in the Motherboard Bios.
Yes, for AMD systems it is called fTPM and for Intel it is called PTT.


What Is a TPM?​

A TPM can calculate random numbers, RSA keys, decrypt short data, and store hashes taken when booting the device. A TPM incorporates in a single component:

  • A RSA 2048-bit key generator
  • A random number generator
  • Nonvolatile memory for storing EK, SRK, and AIK keys
  • A cryptographic engine to encrypt, decrypt, and sign
  • Volatile memory for storing the PCRs and RSA keys

Here are a list of features that can take advantage of TPM, for some it is a requirement and others it is additional option:
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro build 10.0.25262.1000 (Dev Channel)
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo A485
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 2700U Pro
    Motherboard
    Lenovo
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    iGPU Vega 10
    Sound Card
    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    14" FHD (built-in) + 14" Lenovo Thinkvision M14t (touch+pen) + 32" Asus PB328
    Screen Resolution
    FHD + FHD + 1440p
    Hard Drives
    Intel 660p m.2 nVME PCIe3.0 x2 512GB
    PSU
    65W
    Keyboard
    Thinkpad
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    WSA: Installed
    SecureBoot: Enabled
    TPM2.0: Enabled
    AMD-V: Enabled
    VBS: Enabled
    HVCI: Enabled
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    i7-7700k @4.8GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME Z270-A
    Memory
    32GB 2x16GB 2133MHz CL15
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GTX1080Ti FTW 11GB
    Sound Card
    Integrated
    Monitor(s) Displays
    32" 10-bit Asus PB328Q
    Screen Resolution
    WQHD 2560x1440
    PSU
    850W
    Case
    Fractal Design Define 7
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 2S
    Keyboard
    Logitech G710+
    Internet Speed
    600/300Mbit
    Browser
    Edge (Cromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
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    AC WiFi Card

unifex

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In practical terms, assuming you are a "home user", namely you are the one using your machine and you are the one maintaining it, there is no need to worry about TPM. In my case, I read that I had to turn it on in my BIOS in order to install Windows 11 and so I did. I did not do anything else. That means, TPM is available to me, but is not in use.

Now, for me Windows 11 is installed on a separate SSD for evaluation and fun. My main working system is Windows 10 on another physical drive. When I use Windows 10, the drive with Windows 11 is turned off completely. TPS is still enabled in BIOS of course, but as far as I can see, Windows 10 does not care about it. What I mean is, when Windows 10 was originally installed, TPM (or rather PTT) was off in BIOS. When I turned it on for Windows 11, Windows 10 continued to work. The only change is that now in Windows 10 settings I can detect the existence of the TMP module. But unless I activate some policy about it, it's doing nothing at all. So there is nothing to worry about.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    CPU
    i5-10600K
    Motherboard
    Asus Rog Strix Z490-A Gaming
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce GTX 1650
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung U32J59x 32" 4K
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160

Peterthegreat2

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Thanks again to everybody and in particular to unifex.

I now feel a lot more confident about committing quite a large amount to a new machine and ending up with what I want.

I just have one more comment

My computing experience dates back over 50 years. I graduated in the science of electronic devices and its applications. I am not in any way anti technology or progress but I do confine my computing interests nowdays to making productive use of the computer to achieve something. For me it is a tool. I would be happy using the Win 98SE or WinXP interface and not continually having to learn new interfaces every few years. The operating system updates quite often mean that I need to purchase new licences for application programs that already do exactly what I want them to do.

So my two points are

1) what is the point of Win 11 if it will run without using the TPM module for consumer applications.

and 2) will my single payment licence for Windows Office be valid on Win 11 after upgrading from Win 10 sometime in the future.
 

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unifex

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At this point in time, you may run Windows 10 without any problem, it is not necessary to use Windows 11. You may choose to run Windows 11 if you like the new interface, but it's not going to bring any real benefit in terms of improved productivity (although some people find certain new features such as HDR support indispensable). It's just a new version of the OS, part of the natural development process.

In a few years, Microsoft will end support for Windows 10, meaning you will not be getting regular updates. There are lots of people here who think that's when Windows 10 will become unsafe and hence unusable, but personally I don't agree. I have a Windows 7 laptop that does not get any updates and it works fine (with the exception of its age showing, but that has nothing to do with the OS). I am 100% sure that it's as safe as it can be.

In my opinion the new OS becomes necessary when new hardware appears for which there are no drivers for old OSs (there is a thread in these Forums about running Windows XP on modern hardware, so even this is possible, but I can't justify the effort involved). We are nowhere close to that point with Windows 10, so again, you can run it without any problem.

Now, purchased software licenses, including Microsoft Office, are fully transferable. When I buy a new machine, I don't buy new software, I just install the software I bought previously. If that would not be allowed, I would simply stop buying software - this would be similar to not being able to use an old vacuum cleaner in a new home. It could be that you would need to make specific steps to uninstall the software on the old machine, since many licenses are limited to one installation only, but if yo are not certain how to do that, you could either ask here or consult with the software vendor. Finally, upgrading Windows on the same machine simply leaves your programs there, so no need to reinstall (not to be confused with the clean install though, in that case you need to reinstall programs as if it were a new machine).
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    CPU
    i5-10600K
    Motherboard
    Asus Rog Strix Z490-A Gaming
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce GTX 1650
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung U32J59x 32" 4K
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160

barman58

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One addition, When updating operating systems or moving hardware, the licencing of some specialist software can be a potential issue.

One major group is Image / video processing software. the issues are potential as most packages will have a system for transferring licences
Eg. Adobe now runs on a subscription licence so simply logging out of the software on the "old" System and logging in on the "new" System will transfer a licence.

However the applications that use an older Key system may need to have the licence deactivated or "parked" before the new OS is installed and reactivated on the "new" System

Best to check what applies to any specific applications before you start the migration and follow the procedure as stated, as it's a lot easier than trying to persuade the developer that you are not trying to pirate software
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro x64 [Latest Release Preview]
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Chillblast to my design
    CPU
    Ryzen 9 5950X, 4.9GHz
    Motherboard
    Asus Prime X570-Pro Motherboard
    Memory
    64GB DDR4 3200MHz
    Graphics Card(s)
    4GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 1650 Ti - HDMI, DP
    Sound Card
    On motherboard Feeding SPDiF 5.1 system
    Monitor(s) Displays
    32" UHD 32 Bit HDR Monitor + 43" UHD 4K 32Bit HDR TV
    Screen Resolution
    2 x 3840 x 2160
    Hard Drives
    1TB M2 SSD OS, 500GB Fast Access SSD, 2 x 8TB Data + Various Externals from 1TB to 4TB, 10TB NAS
    PSU
    NZXT C750 80 PLUS Gold 750W Modular PSU
    Case
    Chillblast Silent Workstation PC Case - Black
    Cooling
    NZXT Kraken X63 280mm CPU Cooler, Quiet Case fans Fan
    Keyboard
    Wireless Logitec MX Keys + K830 [Depending on where I'm Sat]
    Mouse
    Wireless Logitec - MX Master 3S +
    Internet Speed
    72 MB Down 18.5 MB Up
    Browser
    Latest Chrome
    Antivirus
    BitDefender Total Security [Latest]
    Other Info
    Also run...
    Dell XPS 17 Laptop
    HP Laptop 8GB - Windows 10 Pro x64 HP 15.2"
    Nexus 7 Android tablet [x2]
    Samsung 10.2" tablet
    Blackview 10.2 Tablet
    Sony Z3 Android Smartphone
    Samsung S9 Plus Smartphone
    Wacom Pro Medium Pen Pad
    Wacom Pro Small Pen Pad
    Wacom ExpressKey Remote
    Loopdeck+ Graphics Controller
    Shuttle Pro v2 Control Pad
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro x64 [Latest release]
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 17 9700
    CPU
    i7 10750H
    Motherboard
    Stock
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Stock Intel + GTX 1650 Ti
    Sound Card
    Stock 4 speaker
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Stock 17" + 32" 4K 3840 x 2160 HDR-10
    Screen Resolution
    3840 x 2400 HDR touchscreen
    Hard Drives
    2TB M2 NVMe
    PSU
    Stock
    Case
    Stock Aluminium / Carbon Fibre
    Cooling
    Stock + 2 fan cooling pad
    Mouse
    Stock Trackpad +Logi Mx Master 3 or MX Ergo Trackball
    Keyboard
    Stock Illuminated + Logi - MX Keys
    Internet Speed
    72 MB Down 18.5 MB Up
    Browser
    Latest Chrome
    Antivirus
    BitDefender Total Security 2021
    Other Info
    Also use an Adjustable Support for Laptop and Adjustable stand for monitor

Winuser

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One addition, When updating operating systems or moving hardware, the licencing of some specialist software can be a potential issue.

One major group is Image / video processing software. the issues are potential as most packages will have a system for transferring licences
Eg. Adobe now runs on a subscription licence so simply logging out of the software on the "old" System and logging in on the "new" System will transfer a licence.

However the applications that use an older Key system may need to have the licence deactivated or "parked" before the new OS is installed and reactivated on the "new" System

Best to check what applies to any specific applications before you start the migration and follow the procedure as stated, as it's a lot easier than trying to persuade the developer that you are not trying to pirate software
I had trouble when I moved MiniTool Partition Wizard with lifetime updates to my new desktop. I didn't see any option in the program to deactivate the license so I uninstalled it and tried to install it on my new desktop. I had to contact support and they did deactivate the old install so I could install Partition Wizard on my new desktop. Now I know that even though the program doesn't have a way to deactivate it it's best to check the company's website or check with support first.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Dev
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Envy x360 15-ds1083cl
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 7 4700U 2.0GHZ
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Graphics card(s)
    AMD Radeon
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6"
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    PCIe NVMe M.2 512GB
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security

Peterthegreat2

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Thanks again. I'm always amazed at the helpfulness of contributors to these forums.

I've suffered on a number of occasions when updating from one version of windows to another. Some expensive, rather specialist, design programs would have needed upgrading to the next version at a cost of $1000s. Fortunately I managed to get them running on Virtualbox virtual PC. A printer had to be scrapped when new drivers weren't published. There were quite a few more examples over the years.

Anyway I can't see the whinges of a few consumer users having any impact on Microsoft. The primary objective was to make sure I can proceed with a hardware update in some degree of confidence and thanks to replies here I'm fairly confident I can achieve what I want to.
 

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