Linux VM's and hosts -- alternative to SPICE for Windows Guests :Thinlinc

jimbo45 · Sep 11, 2023

Hi folks

seems that the main video driver usually used in KVM/QEMU Guests (Spice) has now been dropped by Redhat - and others might be following suit.

For those that don't want to set up things like vnc / tigervnc there's an alternative which is being recommended -- Thinlinc. It has its own X-server / xorg stuff and won't work concurrently with local rdb / vnc type stuff but it seems to be stable and works well according to some 'nix Forums.

Note the FREE version is limited to 10 concurrent users but I doubt if that's of a concern to most users on the forum here. download the client, and also the server. You need both bits.

I'm going to test a Debian system using this with a W11 VM to see if I can make it work. Spice though won't be obsolete for a while yet - but nothing wrong in trying new stuff. I use Debian Bookworm (12.x) for testing as debian is hugely stable and reliable. Will then if I get it working use in other Distros. This will have to be done on a spare physical machine as there will be video conflicts if I use a 2nd level nested VM. Will post back later with results.

cheers
jimbo

Hopachi · Sep 13, 2023

Hi @jimbo45 ,

Interesting.

Speaking of the Spice issue:
I am currently on CentOS Stream 9 so here Spice is already taken out, likewise on all RHEL9 / EL9.
This I found out the hard way as all my VMs were broken after the upgrade. XML tinkering was the way out of this mess, following default examples. I decided to move on without Spice and see how things go forward. I got used to some changes, still hope for improvement on others.

Interestingly on Fedora 38, QEMU/KVM still uses Spice as default but that version is qemu-kvm-7.6.x and it's older than what EL9 uses: qemu-kvm-8.0.0.
So I was surprised that CentOS is ahead of Fedora on the QEMU/KVM - libvirt stuff. I like the new stuff but it has its ups and downs from stability perspective.

For the moment I stick with the VM settings defaults, that be it VNC, as it is baked into virt-manager and virt-viewer (gui) but needs some extra polishing as the graphics feels inferior to Spice and more importandly there is no USB redirect in the gui and copy-paste at the moment of writing.

Graphics in the VM I use VirtIO gpu. Also for Windows VMs.
QXL is out of the picture since it goes along with Spice.
But the default gpu in the gui is VGA, also on Windows 10 / 11 VMs and it doesn't look too good here. So I recommend you try VirtIO gpu in case of replacing QXL and in case you don't do gpu passthrough.

Check out the diferent gpu types in QEMU, I'm sure you already know this:

VGA and other display devices in qemu

There are alot of emulated display devices available in qemu. This blog post introduces them, explains the differences between them and the use cases they are good for. The TL;DR version is in the recommendations section at the end of the article.

www.kraxel.org

Please do share some of your findings on this Thinlinc.
I'm curious what gpu is this using in the VM. What sort of acceleration / paravirtualized driver (if any) is in use.

jimbo45 · Sep 13, 2023

Hopachi said:
Hi @jimbo45 ,

Interesting.

Speaking of the Spice issue:
I am currently on CentOS Stream 9 so here Spice is already taken out, likewise on all RHEL9 / EL9.
This I found out the hard way as all my VMs were broken after the upgrade. XML tinkering was the way out of this mess, following default examples. I decided to move on without Spice and see how things go forward. I got used to some changes, still hope for improvement on others.

Interestingly on Fedora 38, QEMU/KVM still uses Spice as default but that version is qemu-kvm-7.6.x and it's older than what EL9 uses: qemu-kvm-8.0.0.
So I was surprised that CentOS is ahead of Fedora on the QEMU/KVM - libvirt stuff. I like the new stuff but it has its ups and downs from stability perspective.

For the moment I stick with the VM settings defaults, that be it VNC, as it is baked into virt-manager and virt-viewer (gui) but needs some extra polishing as the graphics feels inferior to Spice and more importandly there is no USB redirect in the gui and copy-paste at the moment of writing.

Graphics in the VM I use VirtIO gpu. Also for Windows VMs.
QXL is out of the picture since it goes along with Spice.
But the default gpu in the gui is VGA, also on Windows 10 / 11 VMs and it doesn't look too good here. So I recommend you try VirtIO gpu in case of replacing QXL and in case you don't do gpu passthrough.

Check out the diferent gpu types in QEMU, I'm sure you already know this:

VGA and other display devices in qemu

There are alot of emulated display devices available in qemu. This blog post introduces them, explains the differences between them and the use cases they are good for. The TL;DR version is in the recommendations section at the end of the article.

www.kraxel.org

Please do share some of your findings on this Thinlinc.
I'm curious what gpu is this using in the VM. What sort of acceleration / paravirtualized driver (if any) is in use.

Will try over the weekend

@Hopachi

I can't see what the problem was with Redhat and Spice -- same as I never understood why CENTOS stopped supporting KDE as a valid desktop and forces about a zillion and one organisations who had been using CENTOS for years to look for alternatives to RHEL server 8 / 9.

I suppose it's again all about "Corporate Greed" -- get every last cent out of the consumer .

Even now on most popular Linux distros things are becoming as bloated with Windows - with Flatpak, Docker and above all SNAP as a main requirement to install anything -- fortunately 2 main distros resist this --DEBIAN and ARCHLINUX . Ubuntu with Canonical (hideous rapacious company) is one of the worst offenders forcing SNAP down all in-experenced users throats suggesting that you can't install anything without SNAP.

RockyOS is supposed to "emulate" CENTOS but I doubt if it will be as effective in stability as CENTOS given the overwhelming resources IBM and RedHat have now in this space,

Cheers
jimbo

pparks1 · Sep 13, 2023

jimbo45 said:
RockyOS is supposed to "emulate" CENTOS but I doubt if it will be as effective in stability as CENTOS given the overwhelming resources IBM and RedHat have now in this space,

Cheers
jimbo

Rocky is a 1:1 rebuild of the RHEL source code, with removal of trademark images. It should be functionally identical, right down to bugs and features.

Hopachi · Sep 13, 2023

jimbo45 said:
I can't see what the problem was with Redhat and Spice -- same as I never understood why CENTOS stopped supporting KDE as a valid desktop and forces about a zillion and one organisations who had been using CENTOS for years to look for alternatives to RHEL server 8 / 9.

I suppose it's again all about "Corporate Greed" -- get every last cent out of the consumer .

There was some talk about some security issues in particular use cases of Spice redirect / passwords and the QXL gpu considered old (also mentioned on kraxel's blog, in my previous post)
BUT
More important a note found about it in Redhat's Bugzilla:

2030592 – Keep QXL/SPICE support for RHEL 9

bugzilla.redhat.com

on comment 4:

Why no SPICE:
1. Due to some license restrictions around H.264 codecs we are not able to provide a Streaming solution which is needed for modern workloads (as all drivers are using 3D today). Also vGPU support is not possible without this.
2. There are quite some 3rd party solutions that already have a proper implementation (licensed software due to H.264 restrictions unfortunately).
3. For console access and local acceleration VNC is capable of doing the job - and VNC is also used for OpenStack and KubeVirt and they are both not interested in using SPICE instead.

Licensing issues...
H.264. Again.
I already had issues with Chromium lacking video codecs and now this.
Like other stuff as well, for instance ffmpeg was also split in free-only packages without H.264 and co.

They should use open source codecs that don't cause licensing issues to put in vital elements like KVM / Spice. But I'm no expert and in no position to decide this.

Things might settle down after a while, when a decent Spice replacement or fix finds its way to the users.

Hopachi · Sep 13, 2023

@jimbo45
KDE is still avaliable on EPEL.
I use XFCE. Also not 'provided' in CentOS image but is available in EPEL.

Install 'minimal' non GUI barebones OS and add your preferred DE on top there.
Without the extra bloat.

Hopachi · Sep 13, 2023

pparks1 said:
Rocky is a 1:1 rebuild of the RHEL source code, with removal of trademark images. It should be functionally identical, right down to bugs and features.

Indeed.
I tried it, very good. Rocky and also Alma are good replacements.
Hope they can manage it in the long run.

I can convert CentOS Stream to one of these at any time but decided to keep CentOS for a spin and see how things go.
Here being used as a desktop with a DE, so not your regular server / lab setup so to speak.
I'm pleased with the faster releases of most parts of the system, less pleased with others since some things can break once in a while.

pparks1 · Sep 13, 2023

Hopachi said:
Indeed.
I tried it, very good. Rocky and also Alma are good replacements.
Hope they can manage it in the long run.

Yeah, alma decided on a slightly different path. They are going to try to aim to be Application Binary Interface (ABI) compatible, but not 1:1 with RHEL going forward. Therefore, they won't necessarily have to remain bug for bug compatible...so they can accept fixes outside of RHEL's release cycle. So an end user could run into a bug in Alma that is not in RHEL, or there could be a bug in RHEL that is not in Alma. So, really close.....but not the same.

Hopachi · Sep 13, 2023

pparks1 said:
Yeah, alma decided on a slightly different path. They are going to try to aim to be Application Binary Interface (ABI) compatible, but not 1:1 with RHEL going forward. Therefore, they won't necessarily have to remain bug for bug compatible...so they can accept fixes outside of RHEL's release cycle. So an end user could run into a bug in Alma that is not in RHEL, or there could be a bug in RHEL that is not in Alma. So, really close.....but not the same.

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't know about that.

jimbo45 · Sep 13, 2023

Hi guys

@Hopachi and @pparks1

Thanks for all the info

Update @Hopachi and @pparks1

I tried both of these distros as a VM on KVM / QEMU trying to use the "Desktop" live distros -- both KDE and XFCE -- they fail because of video problems (probably Spice built into KVM on most distros).

Both boot -- Rocky gives the start screen and then locks --with video connect error, while the other shows the splash screen attempting to start the video -- and then just remains as a black screen.

If just installing as a server in "text mode" they both work even as VM's.

I'll now try on external ssd and see what happens. I really want to see how these distros have incorprated KVM/QEMU as many run Windows VM's on Linux hosts. The main issue is to be able to connect to remote Windows VM's from the Linux host without needing any specific extra software on the windows machines.

cheers
jimbo

Hopachi · Sep 14, 2023

@jimbo45
Where did you find XFCE and KDE live distros of CentOS and Rocky?
Last time I checked only official images of Alma provided those.
The rest is Gnome DE.

But the main issue here I believe it's the VM settings.
Can you post a screenshot of your VM settings window?

jimbo45 · Sep 14, 2023

Hopachi said:
@jimbo45
Where did you find XFCE and KDE live distros of CentOS and Rocky?
Last time I checked only official images of Alma provided those.
The rest is Gnome DE.

But the main issue here I believe it's the VM settings.
Can you post a screenshot of your VM settings window?

No Centos - just Rocky and Alma

Here you are for Rocky

Index of /pub/rocky/9/live/x86_64/

I think the actual problem is I'm getting hosed up on the VNC server -- I'm using tigervnc but I just can't get the wretched thing to work although the VM can work without the SPICE settings.

Same problem when I install on a physical laptop . I can get a Windows VM up and running but only VGA and it needs a proper video driver on the GUEST - so I suppose VNC viewer of some sort -- that's easier enough but it's the server side that doesn''t seem to want to work.

For windows

For running rockylinux as a VM - tigervnc-viewer is fine but again if I can't get the wretched server working on the HOST !!!!

There's about 10 zillion config examples on google but they are all so different it's BONKERS. There should be just a basic user file and a default start up .

I'll have some beer now and try again later. It seems weird but I can usually get the hard stuff working but what should be easy - really hosing it up.

cheers

jimbo

Hopachi · Sep 14, 2023

Thanks for the link.

I'll try Rocky XFCE right after downloading the iso.

Hopachi · Sep 14, 2023

Rocky 9.2 XFCE loads just fine in VM.

The gpu default here is Virtio.

I suggest you try that instead of VGA.

The VNC server is default for qemu-kvm-8.0.0 as I mentioned before.
It works in TigerVNC but it just runs fine in virt-manager and in virt-viewer.

Host here is CentOS S9

jimbo45 · Sep 14, 2023

@Hopachi

Hi there

That works too but I really want the KDE desktop. !!
Debian works fine as well.

Big problem though is "windows won't activate" anymore even with old technet serials - 9 of my old technet serials for Win 7 / Win 8 and Win 8.1 still work !!. Still activates Windows VM's on other linux distros without problems. Office LTSC (even the "el cheapo versions") also don't have activation issues on these VM's.

What IS bonkers is what that it DOES work in CENTOS 9 !!!!! but I really dont want to rely on a rolling release.

I think I'll just skip these now - and stick to DEBIAN 12 and ARCH,-LINUX and just use CENTOS 9 from time to time for testing (surprised that one actually works since I got nowhere with CENTOS 8 !!) !!!!!

Thanks for posting your setup. Much appreciated.

Cheers
jimbo

Hopachi · Sep 15, 2023

You're welcome.

jimbo45 said:
That works too but I really want the KDE desktop. !!

'That works' you mean XFCE iso?
I'm gonna give KDE a shot over the weekend. It's been a while since I've used it. I don't expect different results booting the same VM settings through other DE but who knows.

Big problem though is "windows won't activate" anymore even with old technet serials - 9 of my old technet serials for Win 7 / Win 8 and Win 8.1 still work !!. Still activates Windows VM's on other linux distros without problems. Office LTSC (even the "el cheapo versions") also don't have activation issues on these VM's.

Hmmm... the hardware must have changed significantly through QEMU/KVM in latest versions then.
When I moved my VMs from Fedora and CentOS 8 to 9, I went in XML and copied the VMs <uuid> then it was (re)activated. Then again, on Centos 9 it works fine.
RHEL / Rocky uses older versions but I'm not sure what broke between the lines there.

What IS bonkers is what that it DOES work in CENTOS 9 !!!!! but I really dont want to rely on a rolling release.

You have to wait it out for a while until things settle. The new release will get into other distros later on.
CentOS 9 uses newest QEMU/KVM to my surprise as well, so the main reason I'm running it as daily driver is to get acclimated to the new changes.

There are some minor things I had to build myself, missing XFCE stuff from Fedora (preferred Calculator, Color Picker), etc.
But the main bits are there and all works pretty well.

By the way, the new VM defaults for Windows 11 are set at 8GB RAM rather than 4GB for Windows 10. Goes way up.
But I replace VGA with Virtio in the settings. Either way, you don't get the good-old Spice-feel, auto-stretching of screen after installing the virtio-drivers and I do need some tweaks to get copy-paste to work; it's, as you say it, bonkers.

Cheers!

jimbo45 · Sep 15, 2023

Hopachi said:
You're welcome.

'That works' you mean XFCE iso?
I'm gonna give KDE a shot over the weekend. It's been a while since I've used it. I don't expect different results booting the same VM settings through other DE but who knows.

Hmmm... the hardware must have changed significantly through QEMU/KVM in latest versions then.
When I moved my VMs from Fedora and CentOS 8 to 9, I went in XML and copied the VMs <uuid> then it was (re)activated.

Then you have to wait it out for a while until things settle. The new release will get into other distros later on.
CentOS 9 uses newest QEMU/KVM to my surprise as well, so the main reason I'm running it as daily driver is to get acclimated to the new changes.

There are some minor things I had to build myself, missing XFCE stuff from Fedora (preferred Calculator, Color Picker), etc.
But the main bits are there and all works pretty well.

By the way, the new VM defaults for Windows 11 are set at 8GB RAM rather than 4GB for Windows 10. Goes way up.
But I replace VGA with Virtio in the settings. Either way, you don't get the good-old Spice-feel, auto-stretching of screen after installing the virtio-drivers and I do need some tweaks to get copy-paste to work; it's, as you say it, bonkers.

Cheers!

I'm beginning now where possible to download the source from git-hub and build the packages via make etc. That way way they either work for your distro or bomb out very quickly.

You need to prepare for surprises if you do it that way though. Most Linux packages are open source so usually source builds are available - and it seems a lot easier than trying to install from source on Windows !!). Usually on git hub on the source elements there's scripts which have the make etc commands to create the application. Ensure though on your Linux distro you have the relevant packages available e.g make, go , c, c++ etc which can often be collectively installed via a developmen-tools type of package. Around 90% of DEBIAN stuff is available via source and if you use gdebi you can install .deb packages manually from other "Debian type distro" repositories too.

Managed to get Windows re-activated again -- the old VM (with spice as video) was still activated. Re-set the video to the non spice settings and cloned from the active VM -- was active again - but the "look and feel" isn't so good as with QXL and spice. Still I'll wait and see what's next.

Cheers
jimbo