Rufus and ntfs/UEFI boot -- what's the problem

jimbo45 · May 24, 2023

Hi folks
I can't see what the problem is when creating a bootable W11 install disk from an ISO made by UUPDUMP.

I'm physically booting a physical USB stick containing a Rufus generated W11 install with UEFI / NTFS boot. Works even on a 10 year old laptop.

I've run it also in a VM - KVM/QEMU and HYPER-V allow boot from a physical USB sdrive and paused it so you can see what it's doing.

Works perfectly normally -- can't understand all the hoo ha about UEFI machines not being able to boot these Windows install media created by rufus. Incidentally this laptop is old enough so it can support MBR booting too but I never use that any more and note this is full UEFI -no CSM and I've also enabled secure boot too.

So let's have no more nonsense that modern equipment and most going back at least 10 years cant boot with UEFI/NTFS and secure boot.

Cheers
jimbo

kelper · May 24, 2023

That it works for you is no proof that it works for everyone!

jimbo45 · May 24, 2023

kelper said:
That it works for you is no proof that it works for everyone!

I think it will work for most especially with modern hardware. Unlike MBR which is special code written on sector 0 of the HDD the UEFI simply is a file on the disk which looks for a partition table (via partition guuids), checks if there's an available NTFS UEFI boot driver and then branches to the boot efi file. If it can't find a driver the rufus system loads its own which normally works and then does the same thing. Nothing magical about it.

The point of the post was to say there's nothing magical about this and these days no special hardware is requred to boot a NTFS UEFI partition.

cheers
jimbo

garlin · May 24, 2023

You're missing the complete story. Rufus had an UEFI boot loader which read NTFS filesystems, to support ISO images > 4 GB. The problem was it wasn't digitally signed by MS, so the only way it worked was to disable Secure Boot or fall back to FAT32 (and reduce your image to 4 GB). Many users were upset by this.

Eventually MS agreed to sign his boot loader, and now you can use Rufus-created UEFI images > 4 GB. But the old story persists, because very few people bothered to share the news. It's clearly documented in Rufus' release notes.

If you're stuck with the OLD Rufus versions, it's still broken for you.

When MS rolls out their new UEFI blocklist to disallow older boot loaders, Rufus will be in the same boat as everyone outside of MS.

erpster4 · Jun 9, 2023

garlin said:
When MS rolls out their new UEFI blocklist to disallow older boot loaders, Rufus will be in the same boat as everyone outside of MS.

check out this issue on github

TechnoMage2021 · Jun 10, 2023

When using a program like Rufus, that operates on the cutting edge of technology, (so to speak) it's always a good idea to keep the program up to date. I do use Rufus quite a bit, but I never use it without first making sure that I have the latest version. Eh?

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

i have newer system , did not need disable secure boot, my older system from 2017, 6th gen i7, need to disable secure boot or it hangs. so might have to do with TPM version,

cereberus · Dec 5, 2023

A lot of pcs cannot boot from NTFS in EUFI.

hsehestedt · Dec 5, 2023

cereberus said:
A lot of pcs cannot boot from NTFS in EUFI.

100% true. I have systems that fall into this category. Once again, this is something documented on the RUFUS web site. It is noted there that there is no technical reason why boot from USB removable media formatted with NTFS should not work, it's as simple as some manufacturers choosing not to implement this.

But this is so easy to work around that it should be a non-issue. Simply use the method that create two partitions, one small FAT32 partition, and then the bulk in a second NTFS partition. That method always works on legacy BIOS and UEFI based systems.

I create all my bootable using that method so that I can guarantee that it works on every system, every time.

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

No , if you turn off secure boot it will work, nothing to do with uefi and ntfs

cereberus · Dec 5, 2023

hsehestedt said:
100% true. I have systems that fall into this category. Once again, this is something documented on the RUFUS web site. It is noted there that there is no technical reason why boot from USB removable media formatted with NTFS should not work, it's as simple as some manufacturers choosing not to implement this.

But this is so easy to work around that it should be a non-issue. Simply use the method that create two partitions, one small FAT32 partition, and then the bulk in a second NTFS partition. That method always works on legacy BIOS and UEFI based systems.

I create all my bootable using that method so that I can guarantee that it works on every system, every time.

It was me who wrote the tutorial in www.tenforums.com LOL.

Create bootable USB installer if install.wim is greater than 4GB

Information As discussed in tutorial DISM - Split install.wim file | Windows 10 Tutorials, it is not possible to create a bootable flash drive in fat32 format if the install.wim file is over 4GB in size. That tutorial presents a method to spl

www.tenforums.com

cereberus · Dec 5, 2023

computerdave911 said:
No , if you turn off secure boot it will work, nothing to do with uefi and ntfs

Nope - it has everything to do with UEFI and how manufacturers implement it. Many (most in fact) just have not implement UEFI boot from NTFS.

Don't you think regulars here would have tested it with and without secure boot?

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

UEFI:NTFS is NOT compatible with SecureBoot GOOGLE it

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

i repair 20 comptuers per day, and have never seen a computer that could not boot using rufus, as long as you turn off secure boot , some new systems work though with it on, many do not,

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

i notice most who post in forums have no idea what they are talking about, lol

computerdave911 · Dec 5, 2023

there is not a windows 7 or 8 .10 computer on the planet that you cant install windows 11 on using rufus ntfs as long as you turn off secure boot with uefi during windows setup. then turn back on after.

antspants · Dec 5, 2023

computerdave911 said:
…

No more sugar for you!

kelper · Dec 6, 2023

computerdave911 said:
there is not a windows 7 or 8 .10 computer on the planet that you cant install windows 11 on using rufus ntfs as long as you turn off secure boot with uefi during windows setup. then turn back on after.

You can't install Windows 11 on a computer that has a 32-bit processor. And you can't install Windows 11 on one with a 64-bit processor IF it has a 32-bit BIOS! And nobody has more posts in this thread than you, so you are right on one thing.

computerdave911 · Dec 6, 2023

Should I select NTFS or FAT32 in Rufus?

By default, Rufus uses the NTFS file system to format USB drives, but sometimes you may need to use the FAT32 file system. This may be necessary if the device you are trying to boot has limited compatibility with the NTFS file system, or if you need to create a bootable drive for an older computer or device. , If you use Microsoft's Media creation tool it will always use fat32 even with Windows 11,

hsehestedt · Dec 6, 2023

cereberus said:
It was me who wrote the tutorial in www.tenforums.com LOL.

Create bootable USB installer if install.wim is greater than 4GB

Information As discussed in tutorial DISM - Split install.wim file | Windows 10 Tutorials, it is not possible to create a bootable flash drive in fat32 format if the install.wim file is over 4GB in size. That tutorial presents a method to spl

www.tenforums.com

One of my all-time favorite tutorials. When I saw it, my head nearly exploded. It's one of the reasons I love these forums so much, because I get educated by really knowledgeable people like you every day!

I owe you a huge thanks for that.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how you came upon that information?