TPM for VM's -- emulation or pass thru


jimbo45

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Hi folks
Just wondering if any of you running VM's use TPM emulation rather than the physical hardware (pass thru).

The disadvantage with pass thru is obviously that it can only be attached to one VM at a time hence you won't be able to run Windows VM;'s concurrently.

I often like to run 2 or 3 concurrently to compare changes etc in behaviours with updates / software installs etc. It's much easier if you can just flip from VM to VM rather than have to power off and on VM's.

(Note you do need a license for each Windows system you run -- if any of you still have those old technet keys -- they are still valid -- enter the W7 ultimate or Pro number --these were good for 100's if not 1000's of activations --no wonder that program ended. !!!).

Cheers
jimbo
 

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Under Hyper-V for Windows 11 machines, I just check this.

1676904114983.png
 

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I often like to run 2 or 3 concurrently to compare changes etc in behaviours with updates / software installs etc. It's much easier if you can just flip from VM to VM rather than have to power off and on VM's.

(Note you do need a license for each Windows system you run -- if any of you still have those old technet keys -- they are still valid -- enter the W7 ultimate or Pro number --these were good for 100's if not 1000's of activations --no wonder that program ended. !!!).

I've got 6 Windows 11 VMs:

21H2 (bone stock, using GPO to stay on 21H2)
22H2 (bone stock)
Windows IP Beta
Windows IP Beta (Moment 2)
Windows IP Dev
Windows IP RP

So, using native HyperV, I *think* it is virtual and not passthrough, as you mention:

The disadvantage with pass thru is obviously that it can only be attached to one VM at a time hence you won't be able to run Windows VM;'s concurrently.

I run them concurrently all the time.

Under Hyper-V for Windows 11 machines, I just check this.

Same. Each get 8192 MB RAM (Dynamic, with minimum 4096) and 4x Virtual Processors (hard limit). None of them ever complain.
 

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Same. Each get 8192 MB RAM (Dynamic, with minimum 4096) and 4x Virtual Processors (hard limit). None of them ever complain.
i keep my VM's to the lowest # of CPU's as I possibly can. The way that virtual CPU's work, if you give it 4 cores, it has to actually wait for the host CPU to have 4 cores available before it can process anything. Therefore, it's possible you get more wait, waiting on CPU cores to be available, which negatively impacts system performance. In the VMWare world, we watch a metric called CPU Wait time, which is the amount of time that the VM is waiting for the physical host to have x number of cores available, before it can execute a task.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro
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    PC/Desktop
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    Beelink SEI8
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    Intel Core i5-8279u
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    AZW SEI
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    32GB DDR4 2666Mhz
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    Intel Iris Plus 655
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    2TB WD SN850 PCI-E Gen 4 NVMe
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    Dark Rock Pro CPU cooler, 3 x 140mm case fans
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    Logitech G9 Laser Mouse
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Hi folks

@pparks1 (and the rest) !!!

Usually unless you grossly overload the VM and also have a whole slew of stuff running on the host the "Virtual CPU"issue isn't usually the most limiting factor. I'd assume these days people running loads of concurrent VM's have sufficient RAM as well. The two main problem areas are Disk I/O and graphics.

The graphics system in KVM/QEMU (Spice) is very efficient -- although for serious games etc in a VM pass thru is probably mandatory - but poor Disk I/O subsystems will kill a load of VM's stone dead - so in general try and avoid using "Virtual disks" as these then need to have OS (Host) overhead to intercept the "VM I/O" and translate it into the target I/O that the guest OS can understand.

cheers
jimbo
 

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Hi folks

@pparks1 (and the rest) !!!

Usually unless you grossly overload the VM and also have a whole slew of stuff running on the host the "Virtual CPU"issue isn't usually the most limiting factor. I'd assume these days people running loads of concurrent VM's have sufficient RAM as well. The two main problem areas are Disk I/O and graphics.

The graphics system in KVM/QEMU (Spice) is very efficient -- although for serious games etc in a VM pass thru is probably mandatory - but poor Disk I/O subsystems will kill a load of VM's stone dead - so in general try and avoid using "Virtual disks" as these then need to have OS (Host) overhead to intercept the "VM I/O" and translate it into the target I/O that the guest OS can understand.

cheers
jimbo
I have no issues with disk I/o issues. Even back when I had spinning disks. I've never used a physical attached disk for a vm. I've been using VM's going back to around 2004/2005. I always use virtual disk files. < this is in regards to my home personal testing. At work, I support almost 10,000 VM's and they all run on virtual disks. (or course many are running on super high end uber fast enterprise class storage using nvme's.).


Graphics I have no issues with as i use VM's mostly to test server based stuff and labs for work. I've never used a VM for playing a game.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro
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    PC/Desktop
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    Beelink SEI8
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8279u
    Motherboard
    AZW SEI
    Memory
    32GB DDR4 2666Mhz
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel Iris Plus 655
    Sound Card
    Intel SST
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    Asus ProArt PA278QV
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    512GB NVMe
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    NA
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    NA
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    500/50
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    Mini PC used for testing Windows 11.
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro
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    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    Ryzen 9 5900x
    Motherboard
    Asus Rog Strix X570-E Gaming
    Memory
    64GB DDR4-3600
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA GeForce 3080 FT3 Ultra
    Sound Card
    Onboard
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    ASUS TUF Gaming VG27AQ. ASUS ProArt Display PA278QV 27” WQHD
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    2TB WD SN850 PCI-E Gen 4 NVMe
    2TB Sandisk Ultra 2.5" SATA SSD
    PSU
    Seasonic Focus 850
    Case
    Fractal Meshify S2 in White
    Cooling
    Dark Rock Pro CPU cooler, 3 x 140mm case fans
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    Internet Speed
    500/50
    Browser
    Chrome
    Antivirus
    Defender.
i keep my VM's to the lowest # of CPU's as I possibly can. The way that virtual CPU's work, if you give it 4 cores, it has to actually wait for the host CPU to have 4 cores available before it can process anything. Therefore, it's possible you get more wait, waiting on CPU cores to be available, which negatively impacts system performance. In the VMWare world, we watch a metric called CPU Wait time, which is the amount of time that the VM is waiting for the physical host to have x number of cores available, before it can execute a task.

I have a 16 core CPU, and SMT grants you a total of 32 virtual CPUs, so it works perfectly fine for me with all VMs running simultaneously.

Usually unless you grossly overload the VM and also have a whole slew of stuff running on the host the "Virtual CPU"issue isn't usually the most limiting factor. I'd assume these days people running loads of concurrent VM's have sufficient RAM as well. The two main problem areas are Disk I/O and graphics.

This. All my drives are NVMe PICe 4.0 drives, utilizing full bandwidth available from my motherboard across all three locally installed drives. And I definitely have enough RAM as well. Hard limit of 8 GB / VM == 48 GB, leaving my system with 80 GB to use elsewhere.

I've never used a physical attached disk for a vm. I've been using VM's going back to around 2004/2005. I always use virtual disk files.

I don't think Jimbo was referencing using VHD versus physical disks for the VMs, but rather, where those VHDs are hosted. Put them on spinners and put them on SSDs, even SATA II SSDs, and you'll still see a difference. As I noted above, the VHDs are hosted on fast NVMe PCIe 4.0 drives.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 23H2 Current build
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HomeBrew
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
    Motherboard
    MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE
    Memory
    4 * 32 GB - Corsair Vengeance 3600 MHz
    Graphics Card(s)
    EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti XC3 ULTRA GAMING (12G-P5-3955-KR)
    Sound Card
    Realtek® ALC1220 Codec
    Monitor(s) Displays
    2x Eve Spectrum ES07D03 4K Gaming Monitor (Matte) | Eve Spectrum ES07DC9 4K Gaming Monitor (Glossy)
    Screen Resolution
    3x 3840 x 2160
    Hard Drives
    3x Samsung 980 Pro NVMe PCIe 4 M.2 2 TB SSD (MZ-V8P2T0B/AM) } 3x Sabrent Rocket NVMe 4.0 1 TB SSD (USB)
    PSU
    PC Power & Cooling’s Silencer Series 1050 Watt, 80 Plus Platinum
    Case
    Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark ATX Full Tower Case
    Cooling
    NZXT KRAKEN Z73 73.11 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler (3x 120 mm push top) + Air 3x 140mm case fans (pull front) + 1x 120 mm (push back) and 1 x 120 mm (pull bottom)
    Keyboard
    SteelSeries Apex Pro Wired Gaming Keyboard
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3S | MX Master 3 for Business
    Internet Speed
    AT&T LightSpeed Gigabit Duplex Ftth
    Browser
    Nightly (default) + Firefox (stable), Chrome, Edge
    Antivirus
    Defender + MB 5 Beta
  • Operating System
    ChromeOS Flex Dev Channel (current)
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Latitude E5470
    CPU
    Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6300U CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2501 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
    Motherboard
    Dell
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel(R) HD Graphics 520
    Sound Card
    Intel(R) HD Graphics 520 + RealTek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Dell laptop display 15"
    Screen Resolution
    1920 * 1080
    Hard Drives
    Toshiba 128GB M.2 22300 drive
    INTEL Cherryville 520 Series SSDSC2CW180A 180 GB SATA III SSD
    PSU
    Dell
    Case
    Dell
    Cooling
    Dell
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3S (shared w. Sys 1) | Dell TouchPad
    Keyboard
    Dell
    Internet Speed
    AT&T LightSpeed Gigabit Duplex Ftth
I have a 16 core CPU, and SMT grants you a total of 32 virtual CPUs, so it works perfectly fine for me with all VMs running simultaneously.



This. All my drives are NVMe PICe 4.0 drives, utilizing full bandwidth available from my motherboard across all three locally installed drives. And I definitely have enough RAM as well. Hard limit of 8 GB / VM == 48 GB, leaving my system with 80 GB to use elsewhere.



I don't think Jimbo was referencing using VHD versus physical disks for the VMs, but rather, where those VHDs are hosted. Put them on spinners and put them on SSDs, even SATA II SSDs, and you'll still see a difference. As I noted above, the VHDs are hosted on fast NVMe PCIe 4.0 drives.

Hi there
That's exactly what I meant but it's not always easy expressing it !!

Cheers
jimbo
 

My Computer

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  • OS
    Windows XP,7,10,11 Linux Arch Linux
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    CPU
    2 X Intel i7

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