Does the 'undetectable' backdoor exist?


Haydon

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Can you be infected with a backdoor that only spies on you and hence is very difficult to detect?
 

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The main question to answer here is how likely is some criminal (or other neerdowell), likely to spend the time to target you. These days unless you are a government, Financial institution, or major business, you are more at risk from something that you do. The point of serious attacks is to steal money, either directly or indirectly, (steal data or other information that is worth money to someone that will pay to keep it quiet or returned)

The private individual is unlikely to have access to anything that would make it worth the effort and time it would take to set-up such an attack.

They may try to gain a dollar or two from several million users by a scam, but the whole technique used for this is open to the target who is fooled into willingly give money or information that is worth money
 

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In the computing world, nothing is absolutely impenetrable, and it is a case of weighing the cost and risk of infiltration against the cost of preventing the infiltration. If the cost or risk is high enough to overcome the cost of prevention, then clearly you would mitigate the potential by implementing the preventative measures.

Unfortunately, many companies (and individuals) consider that this is a one time exercise which it is not, it is an ongoing exercise that needs to be undertaken constantly because every time you close a door to the infiltrator they will look for an alternative door that you haven't locked which means you then need to repeat the exercise - at best you will be one step behind the infiltrators, and highly unlikely to ever be ahread of them - but you can make it difficult.

As to the original question, absolutely, it has been done many times in the past and will be done again in the future - connecting anything to anything always introduces a risk, you need to evaluate that risk and make a decision based upon the value and costs - or disconnect completely from the internet, and never reconnect :wink:
 

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    Dell Latitude 7530
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    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1265u
    Memory
    16Gb
Yeah, my neck hairs were standing up a few years ago, when an Outlook vulnerability could get you infected (although not a backdoor) just by having a mal-email appear in the preview pane, no mouse clicks required :(

On persistence, my neighbors are listening to my (password protected) WiFi day and night. I could stop broadcasting the SSID, but a cheap directional antenna could easily pinpoint me. I don't want my neighbors to know if I watch naughty pictures on the net :(

I wonder about actual ways of installing a spying backdoor, though, especially those that can be installed without physical access.
 

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    Windows 10 Pro
....

I wonder about actual ways of installing a spying backdoor, though, especially those that can be installed without physical access.

Start searching the web for ways to do it and watch yourself popup on all sorts of radars :)
 

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    Win11
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    Dell Latitude 7530
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    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1265u
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    16Gb
Ha ha, I let the experts here do that with Tor over VPN, LOL

Edit: Actually, experts don't have to do that, they already know about the issue from the white hat side of things.
 
Last edited:

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Can you be infected with a backdoor that only spies on you and hence is very difficult to detect?
Some people believe that Microsoft does it routinely. (not I)
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11
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    PC/Desktop
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    Homebuilt
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 7 3800XT
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    ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero (WiFi)
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
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    Windows 11 Education
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    Laptop
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    Dell Inspiron 7773
    CPU
    Intel i7-8550U
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    32GB
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    Nvidia Geforce MX150
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    Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    17"
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    1920 x 1080
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    Toshiba 512GB NVMe SSD
    SK Hynix 512GB SATA SSD
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    Fast!
Digital security is no different to any other form of security, you need to secure your system to whatever level means that the perpetrator of the attack will give up and move on to the target next door - the same as the householder or car owner who adds obvious external signs of security to their property is likely to drive the potential thief to the next House or Vehicle along ... ...

I recall an incident back in the last century - a department in the company I worked at had an attack so the company brought in specialists and spent a lot of money to secure the systems - A few days later an intern (as a proof of concept) spent 30 seconds or so with the malicious code, changed a couple of characters and sent the new code straight through the new defenses (to post a cheeky good morning to the management ), A simple case to show you need to keep the protection fluid - The gentleman responsible for the incident here was not punished at all, ( though the fact he was the son of one of the directors had a part in this :wink: )
 

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    AMD RYZEN 9 7950X OEM
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    *3XS*ASUS TUF B650 PLUS WIFI
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    64GB [2x32GB Corsair Vengeance 560 AMD DDR5]
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    3XS* ASUS DUAL RTX 4060 OC 8G
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    On motherboard Feeding SPDiF 5.1 system [plus local sound to each monitor]
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    32" UHD 32 Bit HDR Monitor + 43" UHD 4K 32Bit HDR TV
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    Windows 11 Pro x64 [Latest release]
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    Dell XPS 17 9700
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    i7 10750H
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    32 GB
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    Also use an Adjustable Support for Laptop and Adjustable stand for monitor
A few people who's computer i have cleaned we found that they had become infected by merely running the mouse over the link to the web site which downloaded the virus into their browser, i'm sure Brink has ran across this a time or two in his working of Malware Removal also, he was one of the best around ! If these people would use their skills to design Malware protection we would be a lot better off ! I have no doubt what you say is true barman58.
Chuck
 

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I don't think it is a thing for home usere to worry about, backdoor takes a long time to access someone's system so the baddies will aim for big companies
 

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    Windows 11 Pro
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    Alienware M18 R1
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    13th Gen Core i9 13900HX
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    32GB DDR5 @4800MHz 2x16GB
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    Nvidia HD / Realtek ALC3254
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    18" QHD+
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    25660 X 1600
    Hard Drives
    C: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
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  • Operating System
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    10th Gen i-9 10900 K
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    32Gb Dual Channel DDR4 @ 8843MHz
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    Norton
Only way to stay 100% safe on the internet....



Nice Drinks.png
 

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    Win 11 Home ♦♦♦22631.3374 ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦23H2
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    Built by Ghot® [May 2020]
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    Asus Pro WS X570-ACE (BIOS 4702)
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    TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX (2 x 1GB, DDR2 800)
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    up to 2048 x 1536
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    Still assembled, still runs. Haven't turned it on for 13 years?
This subject is compounded by the fact that there are both soft and hard backdoors in existence, example of soft backdoor, a recent report of a popular NAS supplier forcing an update onto their users devices, an example of a hard backdoor, Intel's management engine, a chip on the motherboard.
Both are non hidden backdoors for legitimate purposes, but are backdoors none the less.
Do you know each and every chip and it's function on the motherboard for a PC/ laptop, or each and every chip and it's function on a phone's circuit board?
I remember a story some years back about a chip found to be installed on popular motherboards by Chinese manufacturers rumoured to phone home when an internet connection was present.
Can't remember the exact details or what the outcome was, but it is entirely possible for any hardware manufacturer to install a chip for 'purposes' and to hide/ mask it's presence.
 

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    Windows 11 Pro 22H2, build: 22621.521
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    Scan 3XS Custom 1700
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    Intel i7-12700K 3.6GHz Base (5.0GHz Turbo)
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    Asus ProArt Creator B660 D4
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    64GB DDR 3600Mhz
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    WD SN570 1TB NVME (Boot), Samsung 870QVO 1TB (SSD), SanDisk 3D Ultra 500Gb (SSD) x2, Seagate 3Tb Expansion Desk (Ext HDD), 2x Toshiba 1Tb P300 (Ext HDD)
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    Microsoft Ergonomic
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    Logitech G402
    Internet Speed
    800Mbs
    Browser
    Edge Chromium
    Antivirus
    Defender, Malwarebytes
This subject is compounded by the fact that there are both soft and hard backdoors in existence, example of soft backdoor, a recent report of a popular NAS supplier forcing an update onto their users devices, an example of a hard backdoor, Intel's management engine, a chip on the motherboard.
Both are non hidden backdoors for legitimate purposes, but are backdoors none the less.
Do you know each and every chip and it's function on the motherboard for a PC/ laptop, or each and every chip and it's function on a phone's circuit board?
I remember a story some years back about a chip found to be installed on popular motherboards by Chinese manufacturers rumoured to phone home when an internet connection was present.
Can't remember the exact details or what the outcome was, but it is entirely possible for any hardware manufacturer to install a chip for 'purposes' and to hide/ mask it's presence.

I would presume that a Government agency would procure 'clean' computers without backdoors. I wonder if a private citizen like me could get such a 'clean' computer.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
I would just get good AV and not worry
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware M18 R1
    CPU
    13th Gen Core i9 13900HX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5 @4800MHz 2x16GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Geforce RTX 4090HX 16GB
    Sound Card
    Nvidia HD / Realtek ALC3254
    Monitor(s) Displays
    18" QHD+
    Screen Resolution
    25660 X 1600
    Hard Drives
    C: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
    D: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
    Case
    Dark Metallic Moon
    Keyboard
    Alienware M Series per-key AlienFX RGB
    Mouse
    Alienware AW610M
    Browser
    Chrome and Firefox
    Antivirus
    Norton
    Other Info
    Killer E3000 Ethernet Controller
    Killer Killer AX1690 Wi-Fi Network Adaptor Wi-Fi 6E
    Bluetooth 5.2
    Alienware Z01G Graphic Amplifier
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware Area 51m R2
    CPU
    10th Gen i-9 10900 K
    Memory
    32Gb Dual Channel DDR4 @ 8843MHz
    Graphics card(s)
    Nvidia RTX 2080 Super
    Sound Card
    Nvidia
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    Hard Drive C: Samsung 2TB SSD PM981a NVMe
    Hard Drive D:Samsung 2TB SSD 970 EVO Plus
    Mouse
    Alienware 610M
    Browser
    Chrome
    Antivirus
    Norton
Can you be infected with a backdoor that only spies on you and hence is very difficult to detect?
Can I be infected: Theoretically yes, Practically No. :)
 

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System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Envy dv7
    CPU
    Intel Core i7 3630QM
    Motherboard
    HP
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 & Nvidia GeForce GT 635M
    Sound Card
    IDT High Definition
    Screen Resolution
    1080p
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Crucial MX500 on bay 1.
    1 TB Seagate HDD on bay 2.
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
I would just get good AV and not worry
My grandfather told me to get the good things in life before it is too late (y)

Edit: Joking aside, I have covered the basics, and frankly, possibly better than most of you folks, since I became paranoid in this regard when Adobe got hacked big time. I am exploring not so basic stuff with threads like this one (y)
 
Last edited:

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
@Haydon I guess if you have been caught, it can affect you but you have to get it into perspective. I have good backups, and good AV, never had a problem except once and that was my own fault! When searching I saw a dodgy link above the good link I wanted in the list, clicked on it by mistake...
 

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  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware M18 R1
    CPU
    13th Gen Core i9 13900HX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5 @4800MHz 2x16GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Geforce RTX 4090HX 16GB
    Sound Card
    Nvidia HD / Realtek ALC3254
    Monitor(s) Displays
    18" QHD+
    Screen Resolution
    25660 X 1600
    Hard Drives
    C: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
    D: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
    Case
    Dark Metallic Moon
    Keyboard
    Alienware M Series per-key AlienFX RGB
    Mouse
    Alienware AW610M
    Browser
    Chrome and Firefox
    Antivirus
    Norton
    Other Info
    Killer E3000 Ethernet Controller
    Killer Killer AX1690 Wi-Fi Network Adaptor Wi-Fi 6E
    Bluetooth 5.2
    Alienware Z01G Graphic Amplifier
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware Area 51m R2
    CPU
    10th Gen i-9 10900 K
    Memory
    32Gb Dual Channel DDR4 @ 8843MHz
    Graphics card(s)
    Nvidia RTX 2080 Super
    Sound Card
    Nvidia
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    Hard Drive C: Samsung 2TB SSD PM981a NVMe
    Hard Drive D:Samsung 2TB SSD 970 EVO Plus
    Mouse
    Alienware 610M
    Browser
    Chrome
    Antivirus
    Norton
Well, it was not me who was caught, it was Adobe who was caught, but my account along with millions others were exposed. I did not notice any ill effects but it made and still makes me do more precautions than others, even on this computer forum.

I noticed from comments on another thread, though, that there are people with expertise in security, so I created this thread to draw them out, for everyone's benefit.

Back to regular programming, the last issue is this:

"I would presume that a Government agency would procure 'clean' computers without backdoors. I wonder if a private citizen like me could get such a 'clean' computer."
 
Last edited:

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro
I wonder if a private citizen like me could get such a 'clean' computer.
Unpossible.

Spyware today is embedded at the hardware level, at the core of the computer (processor) and can therefore never be gotten rid of.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Envy dv7
    CPU
    Intel Core i7 3630QM
    Motherboard
    HP
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 & Nvidia GeForce GT 635M
    Sound Card
    IDT High Definition
    Screen Resolution
    1080p
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Crucial MX500 on bay 1.
    1 TB Seagate HDD on bay 2.
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
Well, I hope you are not saying that all of our computers are bugged for all eternity :scream:
 

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro

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