How is Windows Hello Sign-In with a PIN, More Secure Than a Password?


ilovehorses34

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Windows Version: 22H2.

I've switched to Windows Hello Sign-In with a PIN. I was pleased to see when I tried to enter in my master password in KeepassXC, Windows prompted me to enter my PIN again. I thought "great I now have a sort of 2FA when it comes to unlocking my password vault in KeepassXC. Then on a whim, I tried hitting cancel when the Windows PIN dialog came up one day. After hitting cancel, my password file was simply unlocked like I had never enabled Windows Hello to begin with.

Microsoft promotes Windows Hello as a more secure sign-in/authentication method than a simple password. But is it really more secure? I was able to simply bypass the Hello dialog to get in to my password vault in KeepassXC. This reminds me of the Win98/95 days where you'd get a user/password prompt when booting your machine. But, you could simply hit cancel and the desktop would come up.
 

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I believe the PIN has to be entered on your keyboard, it can't be used remotely. This makes it secure. Optionally you can include letters, numbers and special characters up to 127.
 

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Thanks that makes sense.
 

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    These specs will be updated sometime. I'm planning on re-using this machine as a server.

How is a PIN different from (and better than) a password? On the surface, a PIN looks much like a password. A PIN can be a set of numbers, but enterprise policy might allow complex PINs that include special characters and letters, both upper-case and lower-case. Something like t758A! could be an account password or a complex Hello PIN. It isn't the structure of a PIN (length, complexity) that makes it better than a password, it's how it works.
  • PIN is tied to the device
    One important difference between a password and a Hello PIN is that the PIN is tied to the specific device on which it was set up. That PIN is useless to anyone without that specific hardware. Someone who steals your password can sign in to your account from anywhere, but if they steal your PIN, they'd have to steal your physical device too!

    Even you can't use that PIN anywhere except on that specific device. If you want to sign in on multiple devices, you have to set up Hello on each device.
  • PIN is local to the device
    A password is transmitted to the server -- it can be intercepted in transmission or stolen from a server. A PIN is local to the device -- it isn't transmitted anywhere and it isn't stored on the server. When the PIN is created, it establishes a trusted relationship with the identity provider and creates an asymmetric key pair that is used for authentication. When you enter your PIN, it unlocks the authentication key and uses the key to sign the request that is sent to the authenticating server.
  • PIN is backed by hardware
    The Hello PIN is backed by a Trusted Platform Module (TPM) chip, which is a secure crypto-processor that is designed to carry out cryptographic operations. The chip includes multiple physical security mechanisms to make it tamper resistant, and malicious software is unable to tamper with the security functions of the TPM. All Windows 10 Mobile phones and many modern laptops have TPM.

    User key material is generated and available within the Trusted Platform Module (TPM) of the user device, which protects it from attackers who want to capture the key material and reuse it. Because Hello uses asymmetric key pairs, users credentials can't be stolen in cases where the identity provider or websites the user accesses have been compromised.

    The TPM protects against a variety of known and potential attacks, including PIN brute-force attacks. After too many incorrect guesses, the device is locked.
  • PIN can be complex
    The Windows Hello for Business PIN is subject to the same set of IT management policies as a password, such as complexity, length, expiration, and history. Although we generally think of a PIN as a simple four-digit code, administrators can set policies for managed devices to require a PIN complexity similar to a password. You can require or block: special characters, uppercase characters, lowercase characters, and digits.
  • What if someone steals the laptop or phone?
    To compromise a Windows Hello credential that TPM protects, an attacker must have access to the physical device, and then must find a way to spoof the user's biometrics or guess his or her PIN—and all of this must be done before TPM anti-hammering protection locks the device. You can provide additional protection for laptops that don't have TPM by enabling BitLocker and setting a policy to limit failed sign-ins.
  • Why do you need a PIN to use biometrics?
    Windows Hello enables biometric sign-in for Windows 11: fingerprint, iris, or facial recognition. When you set up Windows Hello, you're asked to create a PIN first. This PIN enables you to sign in using the PIN when you can't use your preferred biometric because of an injury or because the sensor is unavailable or not working properly.

    If you only had a biometric sign-in configured and, for any reason, were unable to use that method to sign in, you would have to sign in using your account and password, which doesn't provide you the same level of protection as Hello.
 

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Hi,
What really matters is if you use hello... you'll still be asked for your password/ security questions/.... eventually
So hello to now remembering more information than just password/ security questions lol

By the way you can also be safer simply by disabling remote access completely :doh:
 
Last edited:

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Once someone has physical possession, they don't need the pin to access your hard drive. Drive can be removed and browsed from another computer.
And perhaps another type of OS if needed to view files.

And a new or wiped drive frees the device to be used again.

I do use PIN on my PC's mainly for convenience, and I use the same PIN on all 6 of them.
All PC I have at home.
 

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The real question in my opinion is: why would keepass xc even ask for this PIN? Did you configure XC to use windows hello in addition to the password (is that even configurable)? If it is, the PIN entry should be mandatory.
About the question as gathered from the title of this thread: a PIN is a small key to a big secret (TPM based) behind it.
 

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Once someone has physical possession, they don't need the pin to access your hard drive. Drive can be removed and browsed from another computer.
And perhaps another type of OS if needed to view files.

And a new or wiped drive frees the device to be used again.
I think you forgot BitLocker, when you remove the drive, you also removed the ability to read anything as the TPM 2.0 module has the key.
 

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Microsoft faq "The Hello PIN is backed by a Trusted Platform Module (TPM)" :hug:

Just tested
I have disabled TPM in the Bios and "Windows Hello PIN" still works

20251029_snap_1761764052.webp

PS: I understand: Hello PIN do not use TPM on Windows 10
source: windows-hello-no-tpm-no-security-on-windows-10
 
Last edited:

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My Windows Hello PIN is a simple 4 digit number. I've removed password login. I find passwords easy to forget. I use the same PIN on both of my HP ZBook workstations.
 

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I use a PIN as well as Windows Hello Camera's on two machines but I just can't let go of the password as a backup. To many times while troubleshooting or with boot issues I've had the PIN get disabled and the only way to login is with a password.
 

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I use a PIN as well as Windows Hello Camera's on two machines but I just can't let go of the password as a backup. To many times while troubleshooting or with boot issues I've had the PIN get disabled and the only way to login is with a password.
You get 8 total tries. After that the PIN is disabled until a Restart.
 

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    NPU delivering 67 TOPS
    Microsoft 365 subscription
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Microsoft Sysinternals Suite
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
    Dell Support Assist
    Dell Command | Update
    Macrium Reflect X subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 ProSnapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NP...32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/sIntegrated Adreno GPU
    Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Microsoft Surface Laptop 7
    CPU
    Snapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NPU delivering 45 TOPS
    Memory
    32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/s
    Graphics card(s)
    Integrated Adreno GPU
    Sound Card
    Omnisonic speakers with Dolby Atmos spatial sound
    Monitor(s) Displays
    13.8″ PixelSense Flow touchscreen 120 Hz 600 NIT
    Screen Resolution
    2304 × 1536 (201 PPI), 3:2 aspect ratio
    Hard Drives
    1 TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 SSD
    Case
    Black Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Vapor Chamber Cooling
    Mouse
    None
    Internet Speed
    942 Mbps Netgear Mesh + 2 Satellites
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security (Defender)
    Other Info
    Microsoft 365 subscription (Office)
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio 2026
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Microsoft Sysinternals
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
You get 8 total tries. After that the PIN is disabled until a Restart.
I'm not talking attempts though, I'm talking PIN is removed and disabled so an alternate login is required which is usually only a password. I remember a year or so ago you could only log in to Safe Mode with a password only. I just don't have enough confidence in a PIN to keep it as my sole login, I've seen it fail to many times.
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    Windows 11 25H2Intel Core Ultra 9 275HX (24-Core)64GB DDR5 6400MT/sNVIDIA GeForce RTX 5080 and Intel UHD Graphics
    OS
    Windows 11 25H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware 18 Area-51
    CPU
    Intel Core Ultra 9 275HX (24-Core)
    Motherboard
    Alienware
    Memory
    64GB DDR5 6400MT/s
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5080 and Intel UHD Graphics
    Sound Card
    Onboard, Realtek high-performance Audio chips (ALC3329 & ALC1708))
    Monitor(s) Displays
    300HZ 18-inch QHD 500 nit Comfort View+
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1600
    Hard Drives
    2TB NVMe M.2 PCIe Gen 5 SSD
    Case
    Magnesium Alloy
    Cooling
    Advanced Cryo-Tech Quad-Fan Cooling system & large vapor chamber
    Keyboard
    Cherry MX ultra low profile mechanical keyboard with per key AlienFX RGB lighting
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 4
    Browser
    Vivaldi (main), Firefox, Chrome, Edge
    Antivirus
    MS Defender and Malwarebytes Free
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 25H2Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite (12 Core) ARM bas...16GB LPDDR5Qualcomm Adreno X1-85
    Operating System
    Windows 11 25H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Microsoft Surface Laptop 7
    CPU
    Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite (12 Core) ARM based CPU
    Motherboard
    Microsoft Corp.
    Memory
    16GB LPDDR5
    Graphics card(s)
    Qualcomm Adreno X1-85
    Sound Card
    Omnisonic speakers with Dolby Atmos spatial sound
    Monitor(s) Displays
    120 Hz 13.8-inch 600 nit PixelSense Flow touchscreen
    Screen Resolution
    2304x1536
    Hard Drives
    1TB NVMe Gen 4 SSD
    Case
    Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Traditional active cooling fan system
    Keyboard
    Mechanical QWERTY, backlit when in use
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 4 and Surface Arc Mouse
    Browser
    Vivaldi (main), Firefox, Chrome, Edge
    Antivirus
    MS Defender and Malwarebytes Free
Even though a 6 number PIN has 1,000,000 permutations and is essentially un-bruteforceable because of the 8 tries lockout, I wouldn't use only a PIN as a sole login either.
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    Windows 11 ProIntel Series 3 Core Ultra X9 388H64GB LPDDR5x 9600 MT/sIntel Arc graphics B390 Panther Lake
    OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 16 DA16260
    CPU
    Intel Series 3 Core Ultra X9 388H
    Memory
    64GB LPDDR5x 9600 MT/s
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel Arc graphics B390 Panther Lake
    Monitor(s) Displays
    16" 3.2K Tandem OLED Infinity Edge
    Screen Resolution
    3200 x 2000 16:10 236 PPI
    Hard Drives
    1 Terabyte M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD
    Case
    Black Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Vapor Chamber Cooling
    Mouse
    None
    Internet Speed
    942 Mbps Netgear Mesh + 2 Satellites
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security (Defender)
    Other Info
    NPU delivering 67 TOPS
    Microsoft 365 subscription
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Microsoft Sysinternals Suite
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
    Dell Support Assist
    Dell Command | Update
    Macrium Reflect X subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 ProSnapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NP...32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/sIntegrated Adreno GPU
    Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Microsoft Surface Laptop 7
    CPU
    Snapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NPU delivering 45 TOPS
    Memory
    32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/s
    Graphics card(s)
    Integrated Adreno GPU
    Sound Card
    Omnisonic speakers with Dolby Atmos spatial sound
    Monitor(s) Displays
    13.8″ PixelSense Flow touchscreen 120 Hz 600 NIT
    Screen Resolution
    2304 × 1536 (201 PPI), 3:2 aspect ratio
    Hard Drives
    1 TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 SSD
    Case
    Black Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Vapor Chamber Cooling
    Mouse
    None
    Internet Speed
    942 Mbps Netgear Mesh + 2 Satellites
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security (Defender)
    Other Info
    Microsoft 365 subscription (Office)
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio 2026
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Microsoft Sysinternals
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
A PIN is numerical. A password is a combination of letters, numbers and special characters.
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    Windows 11 Education For 25H2Intel® Core i7 5500u8 GBIntel HD Family Graphics 5500 AMD Firepro 4150M
    OS
    Windows 11 Education For 25H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP ZBook G2
    CPU
    Intel® Core i7 5500u
    Motherboard
    HP
    Memory
    8 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel HD Family Graphics 5500 AMD Firepro 4150M
    Sound Card
    Realtek High Audio
    Hard Drives
    1 TB SSD
    Mouse
    HP USB Mouse
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 Pro For Workstations 25H2Xeon 1535m v632 GBAMD Quadro Pro 4100
    Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro For Workstations 25H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Zbook G4
    CPU
    Xeon 1535m v6
    Motherboard
    HP
    Memory
    32 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    AMD Quadro Pro 4100
    Sound Card
    Bang and Olufson Audio
    Hard Drives
    1TB SSD
    Mouse
    HP USB Mouse
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
A PIN is numerical. A password is a combination of letters, numbers and special characters.
Actually, Microsoft's PIN can also be a combination of letters, numbers, and special characters. There's a check box to allow that when you create your PIN. You're allowed up to 127 chars.
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    Windows 11 ProIntel Series 3 Core Ultra X9 388H64GB LPDDR5x 9600 MT/sIntel Arc graphics B390 Panther Lake
    OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 16 DA16260
    CPU
    Intel Series 3 Core Ultra X9 388H
    Memory
    64GB LPDDR5x 9600 MT/s
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel Arc graphics B390 Panther Lake
    Monitor(s) Displays
    16" 3.2K Tandem OLED Infinity Edge
    Screen Resolution
    3200 x 2000 16:10 236 PPI
    Hard Drives
    1 Terabyte M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD
    Case
    Black Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Vapor Chamber Cooling
    Mouse
    None
    Internet Speed
    942 Mbps Netgear Mesh + 2 Satellites
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security (Defender)
    Other Info
    NPU delivering 67 TOPS
    Microsoft 365 subscription
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Microsoft Sysinternals Suite
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
    Dell Support Assist
    Dell Command | Update
    Macrium Reflect X subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 ProSnapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NP...32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/sIntegrated Adreno GPU
    Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Microsoft Surface Laptop 7
    CPU
    Snapdragon® X Elite (12 Core) with Hexagon NPU delivering 45 TOPS
    Memory
    32GB LPDDR5x 8448 MT/s
    Graphics card(s)
    Integrated Adreno GPU
    Sound Card
    Omnisonic speakers with Dolby Atmos spatial sound
    Monitor(s) Displays
    13.8″ PixelSense Flow touchscreen 120 Hz 600 NIT
    Screen Resolution
    2304 × 1536 (201 PPI), 3:2 aspect ratio
    Hard Drives
    1 TB PCIe NVMe Gen 4 SSD
    Case
    Black Anodized Aluminum
    Cooling
    Vapor Chamber Cooling
    Mouse
    None
    Internet Speed
    942 Mbps Netgear Mesh + 2 Satellites
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge (Chromium)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security (Defender)
    Other Info
    Microsoft 365 subscription (Office)
    Microsoft Office 365
    Microsoft OneDrive 1TB Cloud
    Microsoft Visual Studio 2026
    Microsoft Visual Studio Code
    Interactive Brokers Trader Workstation
    Lightroom/Photoshop subscription
    1Password Password Manager
    Microsoft Sysinternals
    Amazon Kindle for PC
    Microsoft BitLocker
    Microsoft Copilot
I've never signed in to my own machines! 🤷‍♂️ Straight to the Desktop! Always!
 

My Computers My Computers

  • At a glance

    Windows 11 Pro
    OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS ROG Strix
  • At a glance

    Windows 11 Pro
    Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS VivoBook
  • ASUS VivoBook 'Lite' ~ Windows 11 Home
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