Solved So when, if ever, will MS provide Apple integration the same as Android integration

pseymour said:

I'll give you two guesses, and it's not Microsoft.

Click to expand...

Welcome to "Wheel of Misfortune"...

Is there an "A"?

Yes, one "A"

It's funny that Brussels doesn't ask these two market leaders to work together in bringing a richer O365 for Mac.

pparks1 said:

Yeah. Dont see that happening. One of reasons apple stuff works like it does is that Apple controls the hardware. The have a known and fixed ecosystem.

Click to expand...

No, nether do I..... but theoretically they can if they really want.
Apple had intel based machines in the past (hackintosh was easy to make it work) So Apple has a lot of "experience" with PC architecture.. and as Apple is so big as they are.. they can easy get Intel and HP/Dell/Asus etc etc onboard to make drivers.
And even they have a fixed eco-system it is mostly software based, so just creating an OS that run on PC hardware would not be really hard for them.
I dislike Apple as much as Microsoft so for me it would not make any difference.. but a ton of normal computer users.. i think even one bad update would make them switch to MacOS if that was an option so hardware cost wasn't a deal-breaker.
Edit: How often can we read in tech news apple is pushing bad updates.. They really test their stuff before pushing updates

garlin said:

It's funny that Brussels doesn't ask these two market leaders to work together in bringing a richer O365 for Mac.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's illegal under EU antitrust laws.

/sarcasm

But there is coopetition, which is why MacOS has Office in the first place. Steve never liked it, and it's still one of MS's smallest dev groups and not directly tied to the Window-based Office teams. But it allows protective cover against the antitrust regulations ("we support non-Windows platforms like MacOS, IOS, and Android"). Even if MS knows there's a low ceiling for those products.

Marie SWE said:

No, nether do I..... but theoretically they can if they really want.
Apple had intel based machines in the past (hackintosh was easy to make it work)

Click to expand...

Lol, Hackintosh was easy to make work?????. I played around with a hackintosh for a while and it was a royal pain in the ass. Had to very specific hardware, had to deal with wacky issues with each update basically breaking everything. I invested in this EFI-X module that plugged into the USB header that fooled the official Apple media into believing it was a genuine Mac so I could install without a custom hacked bootloader. Biggest waste of time in my entire computing life. Even when it was running, I missed all the stuff that made the Mac great. Like gesture support on touchpad, great battery life, going to sleep and waking back up again, etc.

Marie SWE said:

So Apple has a lot of "experience" with PC architecture.. and as Apple is so big as they are.. they can easy get Intel and HP/Dell/Asus etc etc onboard to make drivers.

Click to expand...

They "could", but they won't. Why? Well, because they are quite strict. Gotta have retina screens that have the holy grail of 218ppi, etc. They write their OS code around having things like their touch id hardware encryption, etc. Heck, they even run their own silicon chips to better utilize what they make, rather than using Intel or AMD. They do their own graphics cards, etc.

Marie SWE said:

Edit: How often can we read in tech news apple is pushing bad updates.. They really test their stuff before pushing updates

Click to expand...

Oh it happens. Heck, tons of people flat out refused in install Tahoe and stayed on Sequioa because of the bad/buggy and problematic Liquid gl"ASS" interface they worked on. Issues of high cpu, poor battery life, etc. They seemed to have found a nice solid ground now with Golden Gate, I have that on my new Mac Mini and not having problems. Plan to upgrade my M4 Macbook air relatively soon. The biggest complaint now is that the AI stuff is baked in and enabled by default, it takes up precious disk space and Apple doesn't have a real option to disable it. But I believe that they are looking into it.

Marie SWE said:

i think even one bad update would make them switch to MacOS if that was an option so hardware cost wasn't a deal-breaker.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I think if Apple were farther along in the video game marketspace, that right there alone would cause quite a number of people to make the switch over to MacOS. In any Apple vs Windows discussion, the question it almost always boils down to is.....do you plan the big AAA title games? If so, you are gonna have to go with Windows. Otherwise, it's a lot of Mac recommendations.

I think Apple has really tried to address the hardware cost options too. With the MacBook Neo, they now have that offering for those who aren't able to get into a Macbook air, but really want something more functional than a Chromebook. The one thing that I like about the Apple hardware is that it looks great and works very well. For example, their touchpad is second to none and their gesture support is outstanding. And you cannot find a single Mac being sold by Apple that doesn't have a very, very nice display. So many Windows PC's and low cost budget Windows options just have horrible screens. You can find screens as nice as Apple, but by the time you do, you are in the same price point of the Apple hardware.

I'm at the point where i am pretty happy with all the major players. I utilize Linux a ton at work and use Windows/Apple as well on numerous machines. They all fit in their place and become the right tool for the job.

Crica 1995 Apple licensed some companies to build clone machines and it almost sent Apple to the wall.
I knew a few Mac users who purchased them and they were happy.
Power Computing in their lower models used IDE instead of SCSI Drives and for the average user they were not worried about the Speed Difference.

EB2XR6 said:

Crica 1995 Apple licensed some companies to build clone machines and it almost sent Apple to the wall.
I knew a few Mac users who purchased them and they were happy.
Power Computing in their lower models used IDE instead of SCSI Drives and for the average user they were not worried about the Speed Difference.

Click to expand...

Friend of mine (at the time) worked for Apple in a senior role in this third-party MacOS program. As soon as Steve Jobs rejoined Apple, he fired my friend and the rest of the group,.

I think Steve made the right call. IBM fell into a trap when they didn't end up exclusively owning DOS and the BIOS. MS and Intel carved up what was supposed to be IBM's monopoly.

pparks1 said:

One of reasons apple stuff works like it does is that Apple controls the hardware. The have a known and fixed ecosystem.

Click to expand...

Apple stuff damn sure does work, they believe in strict quality control, and their customer service is the best I've ever seen, bar none. Real people right here in the US who stick with a user until he is satisfied. I don't own a Mac and probably never will because I can't afford it. But I do have an iphone and 2 ipads, one the cheapest they sell and the other an ipad Pro which I bought used.. I was at the ripe old age of 72 when I got my first ios device. I had never had an Apple product in my hand before that and was dumber than dirt about it. A couple of days with it was all it took for me to figure things out. All of them have been absolutely flawless and still going strong. The oldest cheap ipad won't update any more, but the iphone and ipad pro will. I should have at least 3 more years of support on those, but will keep using them until the device dies.

A few weeks ago, my husband bought a new Samsung Android phone to replace an old 2014 iphone 6 and guess who is having to figure it out....me. . The interface is discombulated and not straight forward at all. Its settings is crap and I have been pulling my hair out with it.. I wouldn't have it if you paid me. There is no comparison when you put Android up against ios which is superior in every way. Apple simply knows how to make an better operating system.

garlin said:

I think Steve made the right call. IBM fell into a trap when they didn't end up exclusively owning DOS and the BIOS. MS and Intel carved up what was supposed to be IBM's monopoly.

Click to expand...

From what I remember, lo these many years ago, IBM seemed to want to rush to get into the market, so they decided to go with OEM parts instead of designing everything by themselves. Hence the choice of an Intel 8080 CPU and 8" floppy drives. At the time I worked for Shugart Associates and I saw the letter that IBM sent to floppy drive manufacturers for 5 1/4" floppy drives. I don't remember the exact forecasts, but they were something like 30K low, 60 K estimated, and 90K high volumes for first year.. These are from memory, so these numbers are order of magnitude only.

Same with the OS. They initially offered CP/M 86 as well as DOS, and one other OS, for which I don't remember much. I don't remember if they even patented the ISA bus design. They did have their own, really good, keyboard design.

The BIOS was easily reverse-engineered by clone manufacturers, and all the other components were available on the OEM market or easily copied by the OEM market. Side note: Anyone else remember Eagle Computers?

Alejandro85 said:

If talking about the ability to run Android programs, they tried and were unable to make it work, and finally removed it, showing the lack of real interest.

Click to expand...

I don't know why they discontinued the program. I do know that the Android apps that I used on my desktop worked ok. The one I used the most was the Blink camera app.

As both a Windows and macOS user, I'm still struggling to understand what the OP meant by the original question "will MS provide Apple integration" What form of integration? The two hadware platforms are now incompatible, by design, as they were before Apple introduced Intel-based hardware, but data can be exchanged, both can be connected on the same network; and Microsoft has released a range of macOS/iOS compatible versions of some of it's key software applications which do run natively on macOS. Apple representatives stated, when the move to it's propietory 'M' (aarch64) hardware series was first announced that they had no interest in supporting the installation of any form of Windows OS either directly on its new platform or via its own built-in virtualisation capability; and would leave that entirely in the hands of any interested third party developers (e.g. Parallels, VMware, VirtualBox etc.).

Windows does now also have a growth sector in the 'Windows on ARM' market, but the ARM64 processors adopted, i.e. Qualcomm X/X2 and the soon to arrive NVidea option , are not directly compatible with Apple's 'M' Series CPUs and, of course, Apple's macOS License limits the legitimate/supported installation of it's OS's on any hardware devices other than it's own. Apple also recently announced its planned exit from supporting the 'Rosetta Translation Feature', which currently supports the running of legacy x64 macOS software on ARM64. So, as far as Apple's management is concerned x86_64 support is now rapidly approaching 'dead in the water'.

pparks1 said:

Lol, Hackintosh was easy to make work?????. I played around with a hackintosh for a while and it was a royal pain in the ass. Had to very specific hardware, had to deal with wacky issues with each update basically breaking everything. I invested in this EFI-X module that plugged into the USB header that fooled the official Apple media into believing it was a genuine Mac so I could install without a custom hacked bootloader. Biggest waste of time in my entire computing life. Even when it was running, I missed all the stuff that made the Mac great. Like gesture support on touchpad, great battery life, going to sleep and waking back up again, etc.

Click to expand...

I dont remember what computer i tried it on and i dont even remember when it was, 10 years ago perhaps + - 1-2 years.. But I'm guessing i just was lucky and had the right hardware then as it was easy to make it work. I know so much it was Intel as i dont use AMD computers.. but if it was a dualcore/quadcore/xenon that i do not remember.

pparks1 said:

They "could", but they won't. Why? Well, because they are quite strict. Gotta have retina screens that have the holy grail of 218ppi, etc. They write their OS code around having things like their touch id hardware encryption, etc. Heck, they even run their own silicon chips to better utilize what they make, rather than using Intel or AMD. They do their own graphics cards, etc.

Click to expand...

I dont think they would do it either.. but it would be really darn fun if they did... and i would almost pay money to see Microsofts CEO's face when he get the information Apple making an OS for PC's.

pparks1 said:

Oh it happens. Heck, tons of people flat out refused in install Tahoe and stayed on Sequioa because of the bad/buggy and problematic Liquid gl"ASS" interface they worked on. Issues of high cpu, poor battery life, etc. They seemed to have found a nice solid ground now with Golden Gate, I have that on my new Mac Mini and not having problems. Plan to upgrade my M4 Macbook air relatively soon. The biggest complaint now is that the AI stuff is baked in and enabled by default, it takes up precious disk space and Apple doesn't have a real option to disable it. But I believe that they are looking into it.

Click to expand...

I know several people running Apple laptops/phone/tablets and i have not heard them complaining about updates as i have heard windows people do
My sister went over to Mac after i told her to get a Mac laptop as i was tired of tech-support to fix her system several times a year.. and that was almost 15 years ago... and it just works.. she has upgraded both phones and laptops and it just works...
and the best of all is... no more tech-support work for me.

pparks1 said:

Honestly, I think if Apple were farther along in the video game marketspace, that right there alone would cause quite a number of people to make the switch over to MacOS. In any Apple vs Windows discussion, the question it almost always boils down to is.....do you plan the big AAA title games? If so, you are gonna have to go with Windows. Otherwise, it's a lot of Mac recommendations.

Click to expand...

I'm totally out of the loop on gaming.. i lost my gaming interest in 2001/2002.. so everything that has happen after that is over my head.
The only thing i know about games is what i hear in here on 11F and over at a Linux forum.. They talk about Steam and how gaming is good on Linux and some games is better on Linux then Windows and some games have to be Windows do to some anti-cheat thingi or whatever it is.
That is almost 100% of my gaming knowledge i just wrote down in one sentence.

pparks1 said:

I think Apple has really tried to address the hardware cost options too. With the MacBook Neo, they now have that offering for those who aren't able to get into a Macbook air, but really want something more functional than a Chromebook. The one thing that I like about the Apple hardware is that it looks great and works very well. For example, their touchpad is second to none and their gesture support is outstanding. And you cannot find a single Mac being sold by Apple that doesn't have a very, very nice display. So many Windows PC's and low cost budget Windows options just have horrible screens. You can find screens as nice as Apple, but by the time you do, you are in the same price point of the Apple hardware.

I'm at the point where i am pretty happy with all the major players. I utilize Linux a ton at work and use Windows/Apple as well on numerous machines. They all fit in their place and become the right tool for the job.

Click to expand...

Yeah apple hardware is expensive.. But that is PC hardware too when you step up to the top quality hardware too.. The old saying.. "you get what you pay for" so i think that is one of the reasons for why Apple hardware is good.

I have this in my signature.... (( I hate all OS's!!! (Win-Mac-Linux-ios-Android etc.) so I'm total neutral and impartial in my haterage.... it just boils down to what sucks less for the usage. )) ...
I always say use the right tool for the right job... you dont fix a roof leak with a spoon even if you can, you use hamer and nails to make it easier and faster.

I have heard Youtubers and professionals working with Video media.. they all say Mac is superior for it.. You can do it in windows and even in Linux.. but mac is faster on the same tasks.. I have also heard that Mac studio PC is a good bang for the buck when it comes to running local LLM models.. You have to pay almost twice to get a PC to perform as good. (i have heard as idont have the money to actually buy a Mac Studio PC)
Windows for the moment as they have monopoly is best for businesses as there is so many programs they need that is windows-only. Also some games is Windows only.
Linux is best for working within it-security, even for programming.. (and also server infrastructure)

The problem is that make me have that signature is all OS's has it pros and cons, no matter what Mac-fanboys/girls; Win-fanboys/girls or Linux-fanboys/girls says.... they all suck on some things.... and they all is good on some things.... no one is good on everything
So the right tool (OS) for the right job is the answer on what OS is best..... (best for what task in question)

LeLibran said:

As both a Windows and macOS user,

Click to expand...

Then i want to ask you this as i have never used MacOS more then a few minutes fixing a few things on my sisters laptop.
What is your take on what tasks is Mac better on and what tasks is Windows better on?
From your point of view so to speak.

glasskuter said:

Apple stuff damn sure does work, they believe in strict quality control, and their customer service is the best I've ever seen, bar none. Real people right here in the US who stick with a user until he is satisfied. I don't own a Mac and probably never will because I can't afford it.

Click to expand...

Back in 2013, I decided that I wanted to get a laptop for myself. I had always carried a laptop, but it was provided by work and it was always windows. I had a Windows desktop, my kids had a windows laptop, I was setting up hundreds of Windows laptops for employees at the job I worked at. At that time it was Windows 8 and Windows 8.1. Since I kinda felt it would be boring to just setup yet another Windows machine, I decided at the time to buy myself a MacBook Pro. Figured it would be a great learning experience as I had no Apple experience. I was fluent with Windows and Linux and everybody was just yammering on about how great Mac's were. The price at the time was about $1,499. And honestly, the Dell XPS's and Latitudes that I was considering buying were all practically the same price, ranging from $1,299 to 1,799.

I had a pretty good experience with that laptop. It still works and runs to this day. Battery still holds a charge, albeit shorter than it used to be, as expected. I didn't find it to be as intuitive as everybody said it would be. Felt I had to Google everything that I wanted to do. But it did run good, and I never once had to format and start over with it, it just continued to run every supported update that Apple released. I certainly started to understand why people liked their Mac's, but at the same time I was never one of the guys who "once you went Mac, you never went back".

Around covid time, I decided I wanted to build a new gaming desktop, so of course, i went with Windows. No complaints, has been a great machine. no real problems either with Windows 10 or 11 on that build.

Around 2021 or so, my daughter got a new Macbook Air with an M1 chip it in. I was shocked at how fast it was and how little power it consumed. I too wanted to get myself an Apple Silicon machine, but I really didn't want to spend another $1500-$2000 for a laptop as I really didn't need portability, just wanted a new Mac to experiment with. I found myself a refurb Mac Mini for about $500. That settled that itch, and was only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the price of a laptop.

Unfortunately, with the supply chain problems due to AI, the price of everything has unfortunately gone up. I would have said in a heartbeat before that the Mac Mini for $599 was a steal. Great way to find out what a Mac is all about, and if you end up not liking it, it's very easy to resell to somebody else. it now starts at $899....which is still a great computer for the money....but is not starting to look like more of an investment than just a decent priced learning experience.

Apple is trying to get into the lower cost area, with things like the Macbook Neo. It's a really solid little kit for $699, but I would certainly opt to spend the extra $100 to get touch-id and increase storage from 256G to 512G. The only issue is that with it's lower cost nature, enthusiasts generally scoff at the specs, like 8GB of RAM or a cell phone processor. But then again, it's less costly than the 64GB of RAM kit we want to put in our PC's today.

Keep an eye on the Apple certified refurbished store if you every think about giving a Mac a try. I've bought handful of things from there and they were all pretty much brand spanking new. And Apple stands behind it, you get full warranties, can get AppleCare, whatever.

Marie SWE said:

Then i want to ask you this as i have never used MacOS more then a few minutes fixing a few things on my sisters laptop.
What is your take on what tasks is Mac better on and what tasks is Windows better on?
From your point of view so to speak.

Click to expand...

It's difficult to be specific as it's mostly down to which 'system' I feel more comfortable using for which task; and who I'm communicating with. My initial switch from Windows to Mac came when MS released Windows 8, in the apparent belief that everyone was really, really desperate to have one operating system designed for primarily for touch screen, even though most Windows users had no such devices and weren't likely to buy one; and that anyone interested in productivity probably preferred keyboard and mouse input in preference to having to constantly peer at a screen through greasy finger marks and/or suffer from RSI (repetitive strain injury) by having to constaly reach across to move a mouse pointer. I still similarly 'hate' the default Gnome Desktop on Linux! Apple did it right (in my opinion) in developing a usable graphical touch OS for iPhone/iPad. and maintaining a 'more traditional' non-touchscreen focussed but similar design better suited to thier macOS Laptop's/Desktop range.

Apple is (in my opinion) still well ahead of Microsoft when it comes to media management and ease of use for document design/publishing tasks. One small but significant example (to me, because of my regular work flows): Will Windows allow me to load a file into an 'editor' (Text/Graphc/other media), live edit the filename in the editor's task bar, use File Explorer to move the file to a different folder/drive location while it is still being edited; recognise those name/location changes and later automatically save the file correctly to its new location?. macOS will support that workflow ans Apple's built in File Manager is also better designed to manage such file moves/changes. In contrast, Windows wins hands down on maintaining backwards compatibility with 'older' software, including the retained ability to run 32-bit software, and in the range of data management application's which Apple's developer community doesn't seem to be able to match, i.e. they often seem to focus more effort on graphical capabiliies/app appearance than the primary data management features/functionality. In short there are some Windows Apps for which I have never been unable to find an accepatable (to me) native macOS equivalent.

As far as hardware cost goes, I accept that users can find cheaper initial Windows hardware options, but the average length of service of the 5 Apple Latop's I've owned has been around 8+ years without needing any hardware upgrades and all have been able to run macOS plus Windows and Linux VMs with minimal impact on the Host OS.. When I look at matching the quality of my hardware purchases I don't see any major differences in the overall cost of similarly specced laptop hardware between Apple propiety and high end Windows compatible. However, I gave up on the constant treadmill of upgrading desktop-based Windows hardware boxes almost 20 years ago.

LeLibran said:

It's difficult to be specific as it's mostly down to which 'system' I feel more comfortable using for which task; and who I'm communicating with. My initial switch from Windows to Mac came when MS released Windows 8, in the apparent belief that everyone was really, really desperate to have one operating system designed for primarily for touch screen, even though most Windows users had no such devices and weren't likely to buy one; and that anyone interested in productivity probably preferred keyboard and mouse input in preference to having to constantly peer at a screen through greasy finger marks and/or suffer from RSI (repetitive strain injury) by having to constaly reach across to move a mouse pointer. I still similarly 'hate' the default Gnome Desktop on Linux! Apple did it right (in my opinion) in developing a usable graphical touch OS for iPhone/iPad. and maintaining a 'more traditional' non-touchscreen focussed but similar design better suited to thier macOS Laptop's/Desktop range.

Apple is (in my opinion) still well ahead of Microsoft when it comes to media management and ease of use for document design/publishing tasks. One small but significant example (to me, because of my regular work flows): Will Windows allow me to load a file into an 'editor' (Text/Graphc/other media), live edit the filename in the editor's task bar, use File Explorer to move the file to a different folder/drive location while it is still being edited; recognise those name/location changes and later automatically save the file correctly to its new location?. macOS will support that workflow ans Apple's built in File Manager is also better designed to manage such file moves/changes. In contrast, Windows wins hands down on maintaining backwards compatibility with 'older' software, including the retained ability to run 32-bit software, and in the range of data management application's which Apple's developer community doesn't seem to be able to match, i.e. they often seem to focus more effort on graphical capabiliies/app appearance than the primary data management features/functionality. In short there are some Windows Apps for which I have never been unable to find an accepatable (to me) native macOS equivalent.

As far as hardware cost goes, I accept that users can find cheaper initial Windows hardware options, but the average length of service of the 5 Apple Latop's I've owned has been around 8+ years without needing any hardware upgrades and all have been able to run macOS plus Windows and Linux VMs with minimal impact on the Host OS.. When I look at matching the quality of my hardware purchases I don't see any major differences in the overall cost of similarly specced laptop hardware between Apple propiety and high end Windows compatible. However, I gave up on the constant treadmill of upgrading desktop-based Windows hardware boxes almost 20 years ago.

Click to expand...

Thanks Interesting to get your take on it as you using all three OS's
So as you use all three, then you agree on my expression i use everywhere... Use the right tool(OS) for the right job

I only use Linux and Windows as no one ever have thrown an old Mac in my lap they dont need anymore.. So i only have the perspective windows VS Linux on different tasks.
I always say to people asking about switching to Linux, if they come from modern windows to go Cinnamon or KDE.. and if coming from Mac to go with Gnome to get an easier start on the linux road... so this was interesting to hear you dont like Gnome.. so what DE do you feel is the best to go with if coming from MacOS?

i personally hate touchscreens.. i dont even use a smartphone even i get a new one every 4th or if its every 5th year.. they all just end up in my bookcase drawer and i keep on using my dumbphone with real buttons.

You mention VM's and so.. Then i might ask you instead of looking it up online.
Do you know if its possible to run MacOS in KVM/QEMU as it support ARM emulation? Not for productivity just to poke around in the OS a bit for learning the OS so to speak

Marie SWE said:

Then i want to ask you this as i have never used MacOS more then a few minutes fixing a few things on my sisters laptop.
What is your take on what tasks is Mac better on and what tasks is Windows better on?
From your point of view so to speak.

Click to expand...

I could also take a stab at this based on my experiences using both systems.

Things I like about MacOS

• Easy to format and reinstall if you have to. No need to get third party drivers, etc. You load it and it just works
• Time Machine: I've never understood why MS has never really had something similar. You buy and external drive, plug it in, click an option to enable it, and it just works. Your files and configurations are all backed up, moving to a new mac couldn't be easier.
• Laptops go to sleep and wake up from sleep pretty much instantly, I've never had a windows box work as well in that regard.
• Quick Look: Hit the space bar on a file and it will open in a preview application that is quite powerful. Can often see details, do small changes, edit and image, etc...right from the preview tool without having to open any other application.
• Spotlight search: Has just worked better for me than Windows search.,
• Runs as a local user and then ties in your AppleID to that user account, rather than forcing the online account.

Things I don't love about MacOS

• Software installs seem unpolished. You typically download a package, double click it (which silently mounts it on your desktop). A window pops up allowing you to drag the icon into Applications. The app then installs, it may or may not give you an indication that it finished (a progress bar). At the end, you typically have to close the app installer window and then right click on the mounted installer on the desktop and eject it.
• App menus don't always show you all of the options you may want. If you hit the option key and then click on the menu, you may get another set of options. For example, one click may give you an option to "revert to default", but by pressing the option key you may get an option like "save as default". I just find it unintuitive and hides potential options.
• Windows management still feels clunky. And I prefer the windows style where you click on the X in the corner and the app actually closes out, versus the Mac style where it closes the current active window, but just minimizes the app.