Solved Will Windows 11 installation workaround be available in the future?

jh30uk · Aug 19, 2021

@ FredM8: It is not good news sorry in case you misunderstood as no CPU that fit a Z87/Z97 are on supported list due to some they lack "Extensions" that help with security, Haswell does support software/Bios based TPM/PPT so even with this the CPU will not pass.

Your CPU is lower than the non supported flagship i7 4790k so not supported.

I found a list when Win 11 first hit (I think it was on that "igorslabs" guys site) and the charts showed what CPU's support what extensions/features and what MS require for RTM, my 4790k is missing two of those (nothing to do with TPM/PTT).

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

FredM8 said:
I wonder how long Microsoft will continue to support W10.
Any thoughts ?

Microsoft has already given a date of 2025 for support of Windows 10, but not what level that support that will be, it's usual for Microsoft to give full support [including feature updates] for a set period. After this time they usually give five years of extended support, [no feature updates but driver & Bug fixes and security updates].

Now microsoft has not stated which form of support will be provided until this stated cut off in 2025, and it could be either of the formats - however, Microsoft has already stated that the the update to 21H2, a full feature update, later this year is still in progress of development. This suggests that the 2025 date could be the end of full support so there would be extra extended support after this.

The four years remaining support whatever it's makeup means that those who want to stay with Windows 10 have at least this time which with the IT industry would normally meant that many if not most, would update their hardware in this length of time.

In addition it is normal for third party security applications to be supported for several years after the end of life of an OS so this could add further usability to Windows 10

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

They have already stated that they are working on versions for markets that will not allow Secure boot etc, (as it allows the public to stop official "Monitoring" ), so the opportunity is there to extend this

jimbo45 · Aug 19, 2021

Hi folks
"the Unhackable system" hasn't yet been invented -- I'm sure there will be individuals who will find ways of making stuff work -- A fairly obvious get around which may continue to work is to install on a "W11 Compliant machine", take an image and then restore on a machine of more modest hardware.

VM technology will also probably be able to "replicate" in the Virtual BIOS hardware and CPU requirements -- you can do that already on some VM systems.

The sections both on W10 Forums and this one on "Let's run Windows on really old hardware" shows what can already be done if that's what you like doing.

Of course who knows what world economies, individual incomes and the cost of computers will be in 4 years time or so -- IMO this question is really currently not relevant for huge swathes of people who probably just use a PC for net surfing, emailing, some e-commerce e.g banking, flight reservations etc, a bit of Office type stuff and watching the odd video.

For gamers who probably need to get every last bit of performance out of the hardware and OS then I doubt if a "Non Compliant" PC would be in their best interests.

Still this sort of stuff presents an interesting challenge for people who like messing around with OS's etc.

W11 runs BTW on an old Sony VAIO laptop with PENTIUM IV -- (As a VM) -- the power consumption of that laptop probably would drain our local power plant -- I can't believe how much heat the power supply generates - especially compared to modern laptops or even desktops --I'm running also 2 X NAS server boxes (Micro cube server format) and the "idling" power consumption is negligible even with 4 internal HDD's in each system plus 2 X SSD's.

I got the VM to work by copying the image via Macrium and restoring to the VM's virtual HDD on the VAIO. Note though I had no USB3 system on that laptop so restore was a bit slower but it booted OK, The BIOS had INTEL VT technology and I was able via TPM emulation and setting secure boot in the VM's config to boot OK.

Cheers
jimbo

BunnyJ · Aug 19, 2021

FredM8 said:
Thanks for that info.
I found an old ASUS add for these, about $24 at the time.
Considering the interest and demand, I think that one of the computer peripheral manufacturers will come up with something.
Either that or Microsoft will do something to make this a BIOS issue that can be sorted out with a BIOS update by the MoBo makers.

Certainly not going to pay the vast amounts being asked for by this vendor on Ebay.
Can't blame them for trying.

I wonder how long Microsoft will continue to support W10.
Any thoughts ?

My understanding is 4 years

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

BunnyJ said:
My understanding is 4 years

Thanks !
That's fine.
My two machines should last that long and longer.

If needed I will put together another one when the time comes.
I like to keep two machines around, it gives me a feeling of security if one goes wonky.
It's a hang up from the years when I bought ready made machines, and all the problems, panic and insecurity that it entailed.
These are the first machines that I have built, both way over spec for what I need, but they do what I need very well.
Which is nice !

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

Of course if you are a builder the update would just be a Processor and Motherboard at a minimum, this is a lot easier and financially viable than just going out and buying a prebuilt and dumping the older perfectly good kit :)

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

jimbo45 said:
Hi folks
"the Unhackable system" hasn't yet been invented -- I'm sure there will be individuals who will find ways of making stuff work -- A fairly obvious get around which may continue to work is to install on a "W11 Compliant machine", take an image and then restore on a machine of more modest hardware.

VM technology will also probably be able to "replicate" in the Virtual BIOS hardware and CPU requirements -- you can do that already on some VM systems.

The sections both on W10 Forums and this one on "Let's run Windows on really old hardware" shows what can already be done if that's what you like doing.

Of course who knows what world economies, individual incomes and the cost of computers will be in 4 years time or so -- IMO this question is really currently not relevant for huge swathes of people who probably just use a PC for net surfing, emailing, some e-commerce e.g banking, flight reservations etc, a bit of Office type stuff and watching the odd video.

For gamers who probably need to get every last bit of performance out of the hardware and OS then I doubt if a "Non Compliant" PC would be in their best interests.

Still this sort of stuff presents an interesting challenge for people who like messing around with OS's etc.

W11 runs BTW on an old Sony VAIO laptop with PENTIUM IV -- (As a VM) -- the power consumption of that laptop probably would drain our local power plant -- I can't believe how much heat the power supply generates - especially compared to modern laptops or even desktops --I'm running also 2 X NAS server boxes (Micro cube server format) and the "idling" power consumption is negligible even with 4 internal HDD's in each system plus 2 X SSD's.

I got the VM to work by copying the image via Macrium and restoring to the VM's virtual HDD on the VAIO. Note though I had no USB3 system on that laptop so restore was a bit slower but it booted OK, The BIOS had INTEL VT technology and I was able via TPM emulation and setting secure boot in the VM's config to boot OK.

Cheers
jimbo

Thanks for so much info !
But all a bit beyond me.
I had been thinking along similar lines while I was considering BIOS updates and peripheral add ons.

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

barman58 said:
Of course if you are a builder the update would just be a Processor and Motherboard at a minimum, this is a lot easier and financially viable than just going out and buying a prebuilt and dumping the older perfectly good kit :)

Yes of course.
I should have thought of that.
Mind you, at the end of life for W10, the components on my machines are going to be around 10 years old.
There is no reason why they should not still be viable as they are made with quality stuff.
But they might be flagging by the standards of the next 4 or 5 years.
So, maybe another W11 PC might be in order.
You know, just a little one !
Cheers !

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

My last few desktops I've gone full circle, I used to always build my own and My work in the industry had me building up to hundreds a year . I just said "oh well I'll let someone else do the work"

What I did is go to an award winning builder and specify what I want my latest for instance came without any data drives Keyboard/Mouse Sound card - I just used the ones from my old system - as I locate my personal folders on the data drive it eases setup as I just point the New OS to the right location and everything appears, even the desktop .

One other thing I do is make a copy of the folder structure where the Start Menu shortcuts are kept [C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs] and paste it back into the new system - of course the programs will not be installed but I can do that as I go to use them - If i find an application that has not been reinstalled in six months or so, I can consider not installing it and removing the shortcut from start menu

That folder location is useful in general usage as you can remove/add folders to the start menu and change name of applications to ones that fit best into the space available

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

barman58 said:
My last few desktops I've gone full circle, I used to always build my own and My work in the industry had me building up to hundreds a year . I just said "oh well I'll let someone else do the work"

What I did is go to an award winning builder and specify what I want my latest for instance came without any data drives Keyboard/Mouse Sound card - I just used the ones from my old system - as I locate my personal folders on the data drive it eases setup as I just point the New OS to the right location and everything appears, even the desktop .

One other thing I do is make a copy of the folder structure where the Start Menu shortcuts are kept [C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs] and paste it back into the new system - of course the programs will not be installed but I can do that as I go to use them - If i find an application that has not been reinstalled in six months or so, I can consider not installing it and removing the shortcut from start menu

That folder location is useful in general usage as you can remove/add folders to the start menu and change name of applications to ones that fit best into the space available

My machines are built around 5.25 inch racks & bays, that then have adaptors to use SSDs.
I use Acronis clones as back ups.
I have heard of Acronis being able to install from one machine into another completely different machine by bypassing certain things.
Similar I think to the way that a number of machines can be loaded with a new OS by removing their specific ID markers.
I am unsure about the procedures here as it all a bit beyond me.

How long before Acronis or the like, devise a way of installing W11 on a machine without TPM ?
But I gather that my CPU would still not be up to the mark.
It's just wait and see I think.
It's still very early days

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

Remember what I said earlier about peripheral component manufacturers getting going.
Here is one, selling a 20 pin TPM at a reasonable price. But, it still does not provide the required version 2 security.

SuperMicro AOM-TPM-9655V (Vertical) Trusted Platform Module - Newegg.com

Buy SuperMicro AOM-TPM-9655V (Vertical) Trusted Platform Module with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!

www.newegg.com

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

That looks like a scam by Newegg, to get rid of old outdated useless stock

Dru2 · Aug 19, 2021

FredM8 said:
Remember what I said earlier about peripheral component manufacturers getting going.
Here is one, selling a 20 pin TPM at a reasonable price. But, it still does not provide the required version 2 security.

SuperMicro AOM-TPM-9655V (Vertical) Trusted Platform Module - Newegg.com

Buy SuperMicro AOM-TPM-9655V (Vertical) Trusted Platform Module with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!

www.newegg.com

So why post it?

Anyway, pretty much any motherboard manufactured after 2013 (definitely 2015 and beyond) will (should) have firmware TPM 2.0 (fTPM) in the BIOS so buying a discrete module is a waste on money since fTPM already satisfies Windows 11's TPM requirement.

Unfortunately, I've already seen people here in these forums buying TPM modules when they're already running 2017+ systems. The misconception is that "there's an empty socket for a discrete module, so that means I need to place one their to get Windows 11". That's wrong!

That slot is for a discrete module; however, and in keeping things simple, for Windows 11, it is not needed if the board already supports fTPM via the PTT (Intel (not sure what AMD calls it)) setting in the BIOS.

How to check for TPM: Verify Trusted Platform Module (TPM) Chip on Windows PC. There's also a diagnostic tool to check: Install or Uninstall TPM Diagnostics Tool in Windows 11

The other "misconception" is that TPM requires BitLocker. This is also false - though BitLocker uses TPM, TPM does NOT need BitLocker. And enabling TPM does not auto turn on BitLocker, nor is BitLocker a must.

Anyway, I posted this video before, but repost it for those that might have missed it the first time...

Hope this helps :)

jimbo45 · Aug 19, 2021

Hi folks

As my old Grandad says -- "There's one born every minute". !!!! How true that still is.

Perhaps in 2021 too many people have more money than sense -- if that's the case please throw excess cash my way !!!

Most systems even from as far back as 2016 unless you are an extreme gamer still work really well today !!!

If only when I was a bit younger I wish I did have the slick "Snake Oil" salesman's patter -- I'd be wealthier than Geoff Bozos or Bill Gates !!!! -- but then I'd miss the fun and great advice found on these W10 / W11 Forums - so not always bad news !!!.

Same whether it's computers, art, old cars, old Pianos etc -- always check the provenance - then you won't get conned into buying a pup.

Cheers
jimbo

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

barman58 said:
That looks like a scam by Newegg, to get rid of old outdated useless stock

It could be !
It's not what I would have expected from New Egg.

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

Dru2 said:
So why post it?

To underline what I said about peripheral manufacturers getting going to fill a gap, even if the original MoBo makers do not.

Dru2 · Aug 19, 2021

FredM8 said:
To underline what I said about peripheral manufacturers getting going to fill a gap, even if the original MoBo makers do not.

TPM modules have been available for years. I bought one back in 2017 for my Gigabyte board. That was before I discovered FTPM.

Anyway, I still have the module, but it's not installed on any of my boards as I found it also taxes the system. And again not needed.

But yes, I suppose many TPM manufactures will ramp up in hopes of capitalizing on the Windows 11 TPM requirement (and confusion), where many will wind up buying something they don't need

FredM8 · Aug 19, 2021

Dru2 said:
TPM modules have been available for years

Yes I know.
But, like many I have not bothered thinking about them until the W11 situation came on the scene.
Now I, like others have been looking for them.
But even if I get one I have since found out that the level of security provided with the 20 pin version will not suffice for W11.
It has to be TPM version 2.0 for W11.
But we live and learn.
Just have to wait and see what turns up in the next few years.

barman58 · Aug 19, 2021

As soon as the announcement was made regarding the requirements of a TPM for Window 11 I checked my system and it said no TPM so I ordered one for my Gigabyte board - I paid the equivalent of a few Dollars for the item and this included expedited shipping.

In the days before the TPM actually arrived I learned that my Motherboard included the type 2.0 TPM in the firmware so it was not needed

, also before the TPM arrived the motherboard stopped working and I replaced it with a MB that included the chipset TPM.

If prices keep increasing I may have to dig the module out and sell it on eBay - Who needs Bitcoins :lmao: