Windows 11 available on October 5

sgage · Sep 19, 2021

cytherian said:
What really upset me is the game that Microsoft is playing. From what I've seen so far, the specification demands for Windows 11 will end up making many Windows 10 capable laptops obsolete. WHY? Well of course, this is Microsoft's game of inciting more hardware purchases. Right? Do they have relationships in the hardware world where this was a promise made so that Windows 11 would be the favored OS to include?

Unreal. At this point in time, the TOOL of the computer OS is so well honed & workable, that there's really not any Herculean upgrades available. What more can they do? Move menu items around again? Windows 10 is a wonderful achievement. I've been using windows since 3.1.1... Believe me, having gone through 95, 98, 2000, XP, 7, 8, 8.1 and now 10... I'm VERY happy with how 10 works.

Now of course, Windows 11 has some new feature offerings that may be attractive, but at what price? Apparently Microsoft didn't fully learn from Linux, that you can do more with less by being more optimal & efficient. I was able to upgrade my Windows 8.1 laptop to Windows 10 with ease. A little more RAM and an SSD fixed some unpleasant lag. Minor inconvenience. But given the expertise of Windows software engineers, you'd expect that Windows 11 would be even more efficient and so any Windows 10 laptop could upgrade to it. And sure, if they have options that require much greater resources, make that an optional component. So you can configure Windows 11 to run more lean, or more rich if you have sufficient hardware.

I hope that enough feedback results in something done. I really don't want to be forced to upgrade my hardware when it's totally unnecessary by the nature of how I tax my laptop resources. Unless of course, Microsoft promises to support Windows 10 with security updates for another 5~8 years... where by then, I'd probably need to upgrade my laptop simply because the casing is worn out or the resolution and CPU power of newer laptops is so insanely ahead of my 6 year old laptop that I'd be compelled to upgrade.

Sigh. This has been discussed and explained for nearly 3 months. The point of the requirements for Win11 is NOT performance, it's security, obvious in the case of TPM and SB. And it turns out there are processor features in later CPU's that are not in earlier CPU's, features that MS deems critical to implementing their new security model. They also enhance the stability of the system.

Yes, Win10 is indeed fine. It will be supported for 4 more years. You are not forced to upgrade anything. You say you are VERY happy with Win10. Good news! You will be able to enjoy Win10 on your laptop for many years to come. That's what I plan to do.

cytherian · Sep 19, 2021

sgage said:
Sigh. This has been discussed and explained for nearly 3 months. The point of the requirements for Win11 is NOT performance, it's security, obvious in the case of TPM and SB. And it turns out there are processor features in later CPU's that are not in earlier CPU's, features that MS deems critical to implementing their new security model. They also enhance the stability of the system.

Yes, Win10 is indeed fine. It will be supported for 4 more years. You are not forced to upgrade anything. You say you are VERY happy with Win10. Good news! You will be able to enjoy Win10 on your laptop for many years to come. That's what I plan to do.

My apologies that I caused some annoyance with a question/rant that is too familiar to many people already here. I really don't like how we have to remake our login credentials on this forum collective. Win7, Win8, Win10, now Win11... Anyway, if it was a branch off of a primary Windows forum, I'd have caught sight of more detailed posts about Win11.
But I thank you for the info. I do appreciate security enhancements, but it kind of puzzles me -- isn't this an inherent component of any O/S and that Windows 10 could simply receive a security enhancement update? Or is this such a fundamental change to the way Windows operates that it did require a completely new codebase?
Well, 4 more years... isn't bad. I imagine by then I'll be ready for an upgrade and that hardware capable notebooks/mobile devices will be readily affordable for using Win11.

sgage · Sep 19, 2021

cytherian said:
My apologies that I caused some annoyance with a question/rant that is too familiar to many people already here. I really don't like how we have to remake our login credentials on this forum collective. Win7, Win8, Win10, now Win11... Anyway, if it was a branch off of a primary Windows forum, I'd have caught sight of more detailed posts about Win11.
But I thank you for the info. I do appreciate security enhancements, but it kind of puzzles me -- isn't this an inherent component of any O/S and that Windows 10 could simply receive a security enhancement update? Or is this such a fundamental change to the way Windows operates that it did require a completely new codebase?
Well, 4 more years... isn't bad. I imagine by then I'll be ready for an upgrade and that hardware capable notebooks/mobile devices will be readily affordable for using Win11.

A most gracious reply - thanks. I guess the point is that their new security software model actually works with and depends on hardware features to implement, and could not be done strictly in software. That's their story, at any rate.

4 more years is not bad at all. I have TPM 2.0, and Secure Boot, but my CPU is i5-7400 so no-go. Yes, it runs Win11 just fine, but I guess that's not the whole story. In 4 years it may well be time to upgrade. We'll see what the state of the art is then. We'll see if I'm still above ground

BTW, it seems that 'non-compliant' machines will be able to install Win11 after launch from the ISO, but not upgrade via WU. And though to me, the wording of the announcement was muddled and vague, it seems that systems so installled won't get upgrades? Makes no sense to me, and it's possible that policy at MS is still evolving. I am curious to see who gets updates on the first Patch Tuesday after release...

clam1952 · Sep 19, 2021

As I see it, Win11 requires features in the CPU that only exist in Intel Generation 8 and Zen2 upwards processors to implement the increased security features, if you go back to the beginning where MS said they had Advice from US, Canadian and UK security agencies, reading between the lines, it may have been more of a request from said agencies rather than just advice. Whatever the reason, the world of computing isn't suddenly going to be more secure come 5th of October as Win10 is around for a few years yet and having these additional so called security features like password less logins, apps on your phone, fingerprints and facial recognition doesn't mean we actually have to use them in 11.

Quandary · Sep 19, 2021

cytherian said:
What really upset me is the game that Microsoft is playing. From what I've seen so far, the specification demands for Windows 11 will end up making many Windows 10 capable laptops obsolete. WHY? Well of course, this is Microsoft's game of inciting more hardware purchases. Right? Do they have relationships in the hardware world where this was a promise made so that Windows 11 would be the favored OS to include?

Those Win 10 machine are not obsolete. They should run as well in 4 years as they do today, and there is an excellent chance that MS will continue providing security update to them after that.

cytherian said:
I do appreciate security enhancements, but it kind of puzzles me -- isn't this an inherent component of any O/S and that Windows 10 could simply receive a security enhancement update? Or is this such a fundamental change to the way Windows operates that it did require a completely new codebase?
Well, 4 more years... isn't bad. I imagine by then I'll be ready for an upgrade and that hardware capable notebooks/mobile devices will be readily affordable for using Win11.

It is expected that MS will make use of hardware facilities in the "newer" PC's to provide enhanced security. It does not do this now, but maybe next year, who knows. This architectural change does not require a completely "new codebase", but those operations/functions will either not work on older PC's or perform poorly. Win 11 is a stake in the ground.

cytherian · Sep 19, 2021

sgage said:
A most gracious reply - thanks. I guess the point is that their new security software model actually works with and depends on hardware features to implement, and could not be done strictly in software. That's their story, at any rate.

4 more years is not bad at all. I have TPM 2.0, and Secure Boot, but my CPU is i5-7400 so no-go. Yes, it runs Win11 just fine, but I guess that's not the whole story. In 4 years it may well be time to upgrade. We'll see what the state of the art is then. We'll see if I'm still above ground :)

BTW, it seems that 'non-compliant' machines will be able to install Win11 after launch from the ISO, but not upgrade via WU. And though to me, the wording of the announcement was muddled and vague, it seems that systems so installled won't get upgrades? Makes no sense to me, and it's possible that policy at MS is still evolving. I am curious to see who gets updates on the first Patch Tuesday after release...

Yeah, I see now... TPM. Minimum requirement being 2.0, and so even if you have it, such as TPM 1.2, you're out of luck. It seems my HP Pavilion laptop doesn't have it. And I don't think my AMD processor is up to speed anyway. I had been starting to consider obtaining another laptop and rotate out my last backup unit (I always try to keep 2 laptops on hand). Good to know that TPM 2.0 support requirement so I can narrow down my options.

6391mb · Sep 19, 2021

clam1952 said:
As I see it, Win11 requires features in the CPU that only exist in Intel Generation 8 and Zen2 upwards processors to implement the increased security features, if you go back to the beginning where MS said they had Advice from US, Canadian and UK security agencies, reading between the lines, it may have been more of a request from said agencies rather than just advice. Whatever the reason, the world of computing isn't suddenly going to be more secure come 5th of October as Win10 is around for a few years yet and having these additional so called security features like password less logins, apps on your phone, fingerprints and facial recognition doesn't mean we actually have to use them in 11.

That may be the case but it's funny how some older MS products which are not 8th Generation will be eligible to update to Win11 according to a recently published article. Now maybe I've got that wrong in which case apologies in advance.

But whatever, I cannot see folks suddenly going out and buying new rigs when their existing one is working perfectly well. Always worth remembering that security problems always happens to someone else. One day we'll get some figures as to just how many people actually do regular backups - I think it's a minority but that's just a personal opinion.

Winuser · Sep 19, 2021

sgage said:
BTW, it seems that 'non-compliant' machines will be able to install Win11 after launch from the ISO, but not upgrade via WU. And though to me, the wording of the announcement was muddled and vague, it seems that systems so installled won't get upgrades? Makes no sense to me, and it's possible that policy at MS is still evolving. I am curious to see who gets updates on the first Patch Tuesday after release...

I will be surprised if MS allows a clean install on noncompliant devices. They have started cracking down on upgrading VMs. I just updated my VMware Workstation 16 Player VM of the Windows 11 Dev build and had to delete a file. After I did the update I check to see if the file I deleted was back and would have to be deleted again. To my surprise the $WINDOWS.~BT isn't there so I couldn't delete the file if I wanted to.

Edit: My desktop meets all the requirements and runs the Windows 11 Beta build bare metal without any problems. It's the free version of VMware that I use that is the problem. If I can't upgrade to the next Dev build when released I'll switch from VMware to Hyper-V to continue testing the Dev builds on my main computer.

BunnyJ · Sep 19, 2021

MrGandalf said:
No Need for a HACK

Again, No need for a hack

Bingo, To move it to the left it's in the settings

View attachment 8256
View attachment 8257

People want to move the entire taskbar not just the icons around as in Win 10.

Winuser · Sep 19, 2021

It really don't understand all of the post about MS forcing people to buy new computers. Any device running Windows 10 is not going to stop working come the 5th of October. Windows 10 will be supported until October 14th, 2025. IMHO I think security updates will continue after that date. There is no reason to rush out and buy a new computer.

BunnyJ · Sep 19, 2021

Winuser said:
It really don't understand all of the post about MS forcing people to buy new computers. Any device running Windows 10 is not going to stop working come the 5th of October. Windows 10 will be supported until October 14th, 2025. IMHO I think security updates will continue after that date. There is no reason to rush out and buy a new computer.

They will..like magic they'll all stop functioning. No, they wont but people like to complain, it's the human nature. If it makes them feel good I say, let them and I'll simply ignore the comments.

Winuser · Sep 19, 2021

BunnyJ said:
People want to move the entire taskbar not just the icons around as in Win 10.

I have seen post stating that the Taskbar can't be moved to the left on their computers. I don't know why they can't move it to the left. On all of my computers including my VM I have the choice of the Taskbar being centered or moved to the left.

Winuser · Sep 19, 2021

BunnyJ said:
They will..like magic they'll all stop functioning. No, they wont but people like to complain, it's the human nature. If it makes them feel good I say, let them and I'll simply ignore the comments.

I don't ignore the post but I do shake my head!

Wynona · Sep 19, 2021

Bree said:
Yes. And when considering in in-place upgrade it is only the major build number that is significant. An in-place upgrade can only keep installed apps if the major build of the install media is the same as or higher than that of the OS you are upgrading. Minor build number are irrelevant as a CU after the upgrade will take care of that.

This means that the current Beta build 22000.194 can be upgraded to the release build 22000.(something higher than 194), but that the Dev build 22458 cannot, only a clean install of RTM 22000 would be allowed.

Much clearer, Bree.

I've been on the Insider DEV Channel for quite some time and know it's way ahead and would have to be downgraded in order to get to 22000. :)

BunnyJ · Sep 19, 2021

Winuser said:
I have seen post stating that the Taskbar can't be moved to the left on there computers. I don't know why they can't move it to the left. On all of my computers including my VM I have the choice of the Taskbar being centered or moved to the left.

They're talking about the entire taskbar and not just the ICONS, Like this example

BunnyJ · Sep 19, 2021

Winuser said:
I don't ignore the post but I do shake my head!

Me too.

sgage · Sep 19, 2021

Winuser said:
I will be surprised if MS allows a clean install on noncompliant devices. They have started cracking down on upgrading VMs. I just updated my VMware Workstation 16 Player VM of the Windows 11 Dev build and had to delete a file. After I did the update I check to see if the file I deleted was back and would have to be deleted again. To my surprise the $WINDOWS.~BT isn't there so I couldn't delete the file if I wanted to.

Edit: My desktop meets all the requirements and runs the Windows 11 Beta build bare metal without any problems. It's the free version of VMware that I use that is the problem. If I can't upgrade to the next Dev build when released I'll switch from VMware to Hyper-V to continue testing the Dev builds on my main computer.

MS actually announced that you would be able to clean install from an iso, but not get any subsequent updates. Makes no sense to me, but that's what was said in some press release or other - it was all over the tech media a month ago. Maybe they've walked it back since then. But if WU updates are not going to be available to non-compliant machines, I'm just not interested. Just as soon enjoy Win10 for 4 more years :)

BunnyJ · Sep 19, 2021

sgage said:
MS actually announced that you would be able to clean install from an iso, but not get any subsequent updates. Makes no sense to me, but that's what was said in some press release or other - it was all over the tech media a month ago. Maybe they've walked it back since then. But if WU updates are not going to be available to non-compliant machines, I'm just not interested. Just as soon enjoy Win10 for 4 more years :)

I wonder if this was an official statement by MS or not. The here you can use it but you'll not get any updates doesn't make any sense.. to anyone. While I understand how some like to play around and experiment with things like an OS on a incompatible rig I sure hope it's on a test rig, But.. it's up to them to decide what they want to do.

sgage · Sep 19, 2021

BunnyJ said:
I wonder if this was an official statement by MS or not. The here you can use it but you'll not get any updates doesn't make any sense.. to anyone. While I understand how some like to play around and experiment with things like an OS on a incompatible rig I sure hope it's on a test rig, But.. it's up to them to decide what they want to do.

Exactly - it makes no sense whatsoever. It may be that you would be able download updates and apply them, but you won't get them from WU. Maybe it was one of those slip-ups like "Windows 10 is the last Windows".

I will get the release version on this machine, take it off the Insiders bus, and see what happens on Patch Tuesday. If they're not going to give me updates that way, I am just going to bag Win11 until my next computer. I'm not going to play games.

Bree · Sep 19, 2021

sgage said:
Maybe it was one of those slip-ups like "Windows 10 is the last Windows".

That would make be my guess. MS aren't saying much, and what little they have said gets blown up out of all proportion by journalists.

I'm keeping my 'non-insider' UUPDump install of the Beta build on my 'seriously-below-spec' System Two (1st gen i5, Legacy/MBR) and will wait and see whether or not it continues to get updates after the official release. It certainly has had no issues to date, having received every CU through Windows Update so far.....

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