Solved AUDIRVĀNA (and other audio related chitchat)

Dru2 · Apr 23, 2022

Edwin said:
FEEDBACK:
I'm intrigued by the superiority of the product, however, due to my lack of knowledge and hardware, I have yet to be sold on it!

Superiority as in sound quality, package layout, or both?

Edwin · Apr 24, 2022

Dru2 said:
Superiority as in sound quality, package layout, or both?

I guess I meant it appears to be a superior product, from a package, presentation and price point of view.
The sound quality, I'm not sure about.

hdmi · Apr 24, 2022

As long as it scores pretty high on the FTEI (Foot Tapping Experience Index) it can't really be bad.

Personally, I, stick to foobar2000 with WASAPI and Hi Rez FLAC files simply because the XMOS USB interface implementation in my DAC is audibly immune to input jitter and electronic noise patterns─the clock jitter inherent of the computer's USB controller hardware combined with the typical anti-musical effects caused by EMI/RFI coming from all the various PC hardware components─that ride the data lines of the cable between my laptop's USB 2.0 port and it, and that can propagate onto the more sensitive, analogue, intestines of the DAC especially if the design implementation doesn't include proper specific isolation in this regard.

My DAC uses 2.5 volts for the stereo output signal that comes out of its RCA connectors. Had there been any USB noise there that can be possible to audibly be discerned, then certainly, I would have heard it soon enough, after I hooked this DAC up directly to my Emotiva XPA-2 Gen1 amp with no preamp or anything between. With my ear close to the ceramic (aluminum oxide) dome tweeter of one of my big floorstanding speakers that are linear to 37.5kHz, there's nothing but utter silence according to me and everyone else who has listened carefully to my setup.

When I say 'carefully', I don't mean rapid A/B switching, or ABX testing. Human hearing just doesn't work that way, as an important part of the music listening experience doesn't 'reach' the listener right away, in fact it may take up to 10-15 minutes, maybe longer, before a person starts to listen fully into the acoustic space, which any music lover who has ever entered a concert hall will probably already know is true.

This is how I know for sure that the electronic noise patterns from the USB are buried very deeply below the actual noise floor of my playback chain, as nobody I know has been able to hear it, even, when there was no volume control present, that could be used to attenuate it like happens in a normal playback system. Having 135dB Dynamic Range in a DAC may be viewed as overkill, but with the right amp and speakers it does allow you to verify by listening with your own ears that no noise is leaking into the DAC through its USB input, which matters because the XMOS is just a brand name, the actual implementation of the XMOS can still vary a lot in quality between different DACs.

Similarly, the ESS SABRE ES9018 is highly susceptible to electronic noise, so the implementation of it is what tends to matter equally as much as the actual chip itself, which helps to explain why so many audiophiles have repeatedly said that SABRE DACs sound both artificial and harsh. It's because there aren't too many SABRE DACs out there that use the ES9018 chip in such a particular way that the mangnitude of the combined effect caused by clock jitter and electronic noise propagation gets rejected through being well-engineered with things like good isolation transformers, good metal shielding also between the input interface board and the main board inside the DAC, and an ultra-low noise power supply that uses 11 rails with dual toroidal power transformers.

In short, voltage regulators alone don't cut it, at least not if you're talking real palpable stereo Hi Fi digital audio playback through a DAC hooked up to a computer─in my own personal opinion and contrary to popular belief anyway. That's why so many audio buffs like to compare different software players even though they already know that the playback is still bitperfect with each one, it's because the DAC that they bought isn't capable to use bitperfect-ness to its fullest potential when it comes to input jitter immunity, 'PC noise' rejection, a clean power signal, etc. which I find to be of much more value musically when compared to performing all sorts of semi-popular remedies each one of which, even in those cases where it does have some positive effects that can potentially also be blatant, still fails to address the root cause of the problem, unfortunately.

'Unfortunately', as IMO (and IME) there can be no valid excuse for persistently keep wanting to overlook these important details I mean, once you've learned these basic truths, you can't very easily un-learn them. In the Dutch language, we have a saying, "Wat baten kaars en bril als de uil niet zien wil". Not trying to point any fingers here. But it means "If somebody doesn't want to learn or cooperate, there's no use in helping him or her to do so". My point is, even though audio is part subjectiveness, part science, software cannot necessarily always be used to fix a hardware limitation, but it certainly can help─only it depends very heavily on what the limitations factually are like.

Edwin · Apr 24, 2022

@hdmi
That's an ear-full! I understood about half of that!

About 35 years ago, I had about $15,000.00 worth of Hi-Fi gear and the music moved me!
Now I have about $1000.00 in my laptop and speakers and the music still moves me!
That's what counts!

Edwin · Apr 24, 2022

hdmi said:
As long as it scores pretty high on the FTEI

Dru2 · Apr 24, 2022

Edwin said:
@hdmi
That's an ear-full! I understood about half of that!

With you on that :)

Edwin said:
About 35 years ago, I had about $15,000.00 worth of Hi-Fi gear and the music moved me!
Now I have about $1000.00 in my laptop and speakers and the music still moves me!
That's what counts!

Yeah, I packed my hi-fi gear away a few years ago as I was going to move. Didn't move, never unpacked the gear, now it's just PC, DAC, and speakers. Music sounds just fine. The only thing I miss is being able to play my vinyl.

Edwin · Apr 24, 2022

Dru2 said:
The only thing I miss is being able to play my vinyl.

Edwin · Apr 24, 2022

Edwin · Apr 25, 2022

A/B'd Bach's Passacaglia & Fugue with Audirvana and foobar..., through Jabra Elite 85h's
there was a big difference!
Audirvana preserves the recording dynamics well...,
a lot of compression/decompression going on in foobar!

jimbo45 · Apr 25, 2022

Edwin said:
I guess I meant it appears to be a superior product, from a package, presentation and price point of view.
The sound quality, I'm not sure about.

Love it here with these Audio / Hi-Fi discussions. !!!

You guys are "leading Edge" but some "Trailing Edge" stuff still blows away "These new fangled ideas" .

If you don't have top notch Studio quality speakers and a set of decent DAC's in your computer hardware then any software playback or recording is really a waste of time (and "ears") -- typical cheap things as usually found on most domestic computers and mobile phones don't give good quality output -- Poor or less than premium quality Speakers and miserable quality DAC's will "Kill any software" (and your ears too) stone dead.

Playing output from a PRO MiniDisc recorder - even without tagging the tracks on great equipment will blow away I guarantee 99.9% of typical domestic computer set ups irrespective of the quality of the Audio playback software,

Here you go : from "XP" - Record to MD -- First use NERO to create audio compilation and save to .nrg file, then Alcohol 52% can mount an .nrg file as an audio cd -- then it all works fine -- just record to MD and then enjoy playback through Mission quality Studio reference speakers. !!!!

"Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow" but it sounds really great and independent from the computer too.

Cheers
jimbo

Dru2 · Apr 25, 2022

Edwin said:
Audirvana preserves the recording dynamics well...,
a lot of compression/decompression going on in foobar!

What DAC are you running?

Edwin · Apr 25, 2022

Dru2 said:
What DAC are you running?

I'm not, it's apparently built into the software!

Edwin · Apr 25, 2022

I don't have any fancy gear but, I think I'm still impressed!

Dru2 · Apr 25, 2022

Edwin said:
I'm not, it's apparently built into the software!

Oh, wait... I thought it needed a DAC? Going by this review this is what the reviewer said...

Again, to enjoy the full experience, you’ll need a USB-DAC or a DAP connected through USB to your computer.

Anyway, when I get a chance I'll have to download the trial version and see how it performs with my DAC.

Dru2 · Apr 25, 2022

@Edwin, I forgot to ask are you running Audirvana Origin (local files) or Audirvana Studio (Streaming files)?

Edwin · Apr 25, 2022

Dru2 said:
@Edwin, I forgot to ask are you running Audirvana Origin (local files) or Audirvana Studio (Streaming files)?

Audirvana Origin

Dru2 · Apr 25, 2022

That's the one I'm going to try.

BTW, I'm checking out the community forum which seems to be active so that says a lot. Some chatter the latest version isn't offering much over the previous version, especially when the upgrade asking price is 90 bucks.

jimbo45 · Apr 25, 2022

Edwin said:
I'm not, it's apparently built into the software!

Hi there

one needs some sort of mechanism to convert digital to Analog sound (and of course the original music was played on "Analog instruments") so the source quality of the music itself needs a good Analog > digital process for it to be captured in digital form e.g flac or whatever in the first place.

Assuming the source quality of the music is top notch (unfortunately it often isn't but that's another issue) then to play it on a computer the sound is obviously converted to Analog and fed into your speakers.

If you have a "Digital out" then the speaker system will have a hardware DAC or a set of DAC's in them to convert to Analog for the speaker system to reproduce the sound so that the ear can hear it - this is done usually by complex Fourier analysis and transforms in the hardware.

The digital sound is chopped up into an almost infinite set of sine waves which then causes the speaker "cones" to vibrate at these frequencies -- the movement of air is what you actually hear. Modern speakers have all sorts of things in them unlike the sort of "cardboardy baffles" older speakers had but the end effect is to cause columns of air to vibrate and that's the sound you hear.

One way or another there will always be DAC's involved when playing digitally recorded music whether on CD,via streaming services or whatever. Vinyl though is pure analog - the stylus in the groves vibrates and that can be translated directly into the waveform that the speaker recognizes.

A typical domestic computer wouldn't have enough "Processing juice" to perform these in the quick time needed for proper listening -- which is why this is invariably done with a DAC in a computer sound card or a "Co-processing chip" if the audio is integrated into the Mobo.

So you need 2 proper parts for high quality music output (again assuming the source is of high quality itself). Some mechanism for transcoding the digital signal to Analog --usually by hardware DAC and then a set of high class speakers possibly needing a pre-amp too - depending on the output level of your music.

I somehow doubt that pure software on domestic computers wouldn't compare with proper studio stuff !!!! and decent speakers aren't cheap either. That last 5 or 6% of top quality is what really costs the money if you are keen on this stuff.

Cheers
jimbo

Dru2 · Apr 26, 2022

@Edwin, OK, one word on sound quality - Impressive!

This app has a warmth to it that JRiver Media Center seems to be lacking. The sound it more reminiscent of analog vs digital (less harsh).

I just A/B'd Steely Dan's "Black Cow" from my Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs "AJA" CD (ripped to PC) and I gotta say it sounds more warm (reminiscent of analog) under Audirvana, than it does under JRiver. Under JRiver the highs can get a bit harsh, no such issues under Av.

Both players see the CD as 24-bit/96k, but as I said, it sounds better under AV. Also game my audiophile edition of Diana Krall's "The Look of Love" on JVC's XRCD mastering (this one is 24-bit/44k. Handles that like a champ as well. Of course, all this is through my Teac DAC connected to PC vis USB and using Teac's ASIO driver.

One the interface side no missing album art or missing info, and I kind of like the layout. Also like how the library puts things where they belong. I have a number of hi-res cd's and Audirvana automatically put them in the "Hi-Res" section