Choosing the right SSD...

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

geneo said:
Well the Sandforce was different. It compressed data and had issues because of that. Comparing them is a bit of apples to oranges. They skimped on over provisioning with the excuse that because of the compression of data it was effectively over provisioned. I think part of the sandforce issue was the compression itself. That wasn't a great success.

May be off again. Issue was not the modem apparently.

It was different in terms of it having the type of garbage collection that just didn't work the way it was supposed to work with TRIM, and, looking at C300 also showed that TRIM versus no TRIM had no noticeable impact on performance if garbage collection had been properly designed [to be not delayed until the last moment]. The compression [in SandForce] was put to blame for this, but the reality was that garbage collection was the only culprit─aside from the apparent firmware stability issues that went on also in addition to this.

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

geneo said:
Their specs should say TLC if they are 3 level. QLC if they are 4.

I disagree. 2, 3, 4, all meet the definition of 'Multi' so no one is trying to mislead, especially in light of the fact that you don't even have to know that 'T'=3 and 'Q'=4, when the correct number of bits has already been put directly in front of your eyes so no smoke and no mirrors have been involved.

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

TheMystic said:
Then why are you so negative about QLC disks?

Because it smells bad. :wink:

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

TheMystic said:
Samsung phones don't have one thing that is extremely important to me: Built-in Firewall!

What's worst about 'em is that they can't fetch my slippers...

TheMystic · Dec 11, 2021

hdmi said:
I disagree. 2, 3, 4, all meet the definition of 'Multi' so no one is trying to mislead, especially in light of the fact that you don't even have to know that 'T'=3 and 'Q'=4, when the correct number of bits has already been put directly in front of your eyes so no smoke and no mirrors have been involved.

It is strange that you can’t see the intent behind misusing the terminology. There was no need for coining Triple, Quad, etc. if these were not required. But since these terms were coined based on evolving technology, it makes complete sense to use those specifically coined for this purpose, than misuse an older terminology just to mislead customers.

When people look for the architecture type, most don’t know that 3-bit MLC is nothing but TLC, 4-bit MLC is same as QLC, etc.

Samsung is just misleading the market in this context.

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

TheMystic said:
It is strange that you can’t see the intent behind misusing the terminology. There was no need for coining Triple, Quad, etc. if these were not required. But since these terms were coined based on evolving technology, it makes complete sense to use those specifically coined for this purpose, than misuse an older terminology just to mislead customers.

When people look for the architecture type, most don’t know that 3-bit MLC is nothing but TLC, 4-bit MLC is same as QLC, etc.

Samsung is just misleading the market in this context.

There is no misuse and no trying to mislead. The number of bits per cell is there for everyone to see with absolute clarity. This is just a fact.

The-Hive · Dec 11, 2021

TheMystic said:
Any special affection for SSDs?

Why did you buy one when you had so much free space sitting unused?

It was originally going to be a 3rd internal for a project I am going to start, so I would have that on E, all my programs and data on D, operating system ,AV , office and any programs insist on being on a C drive in C. Also I have a lot on data pens I wish to move back to the D drive,

PerpetualCycle · Dec 11, 2021

hdmi said:
It was different in terms of it having the type of garbage collection that just didn't work the way it was supposed to work with TRIM, and, looking at C300 also showed that TRIM versus no TRIM had no noticeable impact on performance if garbage collection had been properly designed [to be not delayed until the last moment]. The compression [in SandForce] was put to blame for this, but the reality was that garbage collection was the only culprit─aside from the apparent firmware stability issues that went on also in addition to this.

Well your entitled to your opinion, and that is all it is. I will point out you were holding up an old C300 model of SSD that, in an environment where TRIM was not supported, you say outperformed another old model SSD that had an admittedly extremely troubled sandforce SSD controller, in an environment where TRIM was supported, as evidence that TRIM is not beneficial.

You fill a non TRIMed SSD up to 80%, the SSD is always going to think it is 80% full, even if you delete lots of files and free up space on its partitions, and it will perform like it is 80% full until you secure erase it. You therefore need more permanently over provisioned space, and you can no longer depend on the free space in your partitions acting as "over provisioning" in the SSD view.

No further comment, I am not going to participate in your pointless piddling match anymore.

The-Hive · Dec 11, 2021

@TheMystic I forgot to say the other day, although the Orico enclosure works well for the EVO970 plus I wouldn't recommend it as the fitting to fix the SSD to it is a push on plastic clip and is very fiddly to fit, some of the other makes use a screw. Performance wise I am pleased with it

TheMystic · Dec 11, 2021

The-Hive said:
@TheMystic I forgot to say the other day, although the Orico enclosure works well for the EVO970 plus I wouldn't recommend it as the fitting to fix the SSD to it is a push on plastic clip and is very fiddly to fit, some of the other makes use a screw. Performance wise I am pleased with it

You can check this one here: Orico 3.2 Gen 2 with Fan.

I got one for myself too: Orico 3.1 Gen 2 Enclosure.

Completely forgot that this is plastic and there is zero ventilation. Plus these transparent covers will yellow over time, and scratches would make them look bad.

I have this thermal tape, but I don't know if it will help.

Any advise?

The-Hive · Dec 11, 2021

TheMystic said:
You can check this one here: Orico 3.2 Gen 2 with Fan.

I got one for myself too: Orico 3.1 Gen 2 Enclosure.

Completely forgot that this is plastic and there is zero ventilation. Plus these transparent covers will yellow over time, and scratches would make them look bad.

I have this thermal tape, but I don't know if it will help.

Any advise?

Thanks for the info @TheMystic I don't like the plastic one, hence I got the aluminium one. Like you I was a bit unsure of the thermal tape so I put extra on to cover the whole side of the drive like the one on the Alienware heat shield

hdmi · Dec 11, 2021

geneo said:
Well your entitled to your opinion, and that is all it is. I will point out you were holding up an old C300 model of SSD that, in an environment where TRIM was not supported, you say outperformed another old model SSD that had an admittedly extremely troubled sandforce SSD controller, in an environment where TRIM was supported, as evidence that TRIM is not beneficial.

No. I never said anything about outperforming, nor made the claim that TRIM is not beneficial.

geneo said:
You fill a non TRIMed SSD up to 80%, the SSD is always going to think it is 80% full, even if you delete lots of files and free up space on its partitions, and it will perform like it is 80% full until you secure erase it.

Incorrect.

geneo said:
You therefore need more permanently over provisioned space, and you can no longer depend on the free space in your partitions acting as "over provisioning" in the SSD view.

Incorrect ×2, as others have already pointed out previously in the thread.

geneo said:
No further comment, I am not going to participate in your pointless piddling match anymore.

PerpetualCycle · Dec 11, 2021

hdmi said:
No. I never said anything about outperforming, nor made the claim that TRIM is not beneficial.

Incorrect.

Incorrect ×2, as others have already pointed out previously in the thread.

No, I'm not.

hdmi · Dec 12, 2021

^ In an environment where TRIM was not supported (which was common in that era, as has been correctly pointed out in the article I linked to previously that was written by Anand, and that I linked to NOT just because his name contains 'nand'

), it was still possible to write zeros to the files prior to deletion. Thereby the entropy of the Presumed Valid Data was effectively reduced to zero, and, next, during the garbage collection, the data compression caused the write amplification to be decreased as a result from this substantial reduction in aggregate entropy level. As explained in the article by Seagate (link below), only when the operating system (OS) tries to store new data in a previously used location does the SSD know that a particular location contains invalid data. But the way dynamic over-provisioning works if the controller uses data compression like DuraWrite or similar, the write amplification not only is impacted by the actual size of the Presumed Valid Data, but also is impacted, very significantly, by the aggregate entropy level thereof. So, TRIM and secure erasing the SSD were not the only ways to ensure that dynamic over-provisioning level was restored to optimal some time after the SSD had been filled up temporarily to 80% or even higher. To determine its strategy the C300 looked at things like usage patterns and what data was getting accessed the most, so there's another example of the fact there always have been ways to work around the issue of having no TRIM to work with, which is pretty obvious when you come to think that SSD technologies are corporate investments, not just a way to make your game load faster.

SSD Over-Provisioning And Its Benefits | Seagate US

Dch48 · Jan 17, 2022

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
Just ran across this

Samsung 870 QVO 1 TB Review - Terrible, Do Not Buy

The Samsung 870 QVO is the company's new QLC-based SSD that reaches capacities of up to 8 TB. In our Samsung 870 QVO review we're taking a close look not only at synthetics, but also real-life performance, which is surprisingly weak, especially considering they want $115 for the reviewed 1 TB...

www.techpowerup.com

Bahh my gaming rig, this computer actually, has the 1 TB 860 QVO and it's just fine. It's just as fast as the 1TB Crucial MX500 in my laptop.

Dch48 · Jan 17, 2022

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
Well clearly 870 qvo should be avoided not buying a larger one as you state if budget is an issue stick with hdd 7200rpm is best.

Totally wrong. The QVO is far superior to any HDD.

Dch48 · Jan 17, 2022

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
All of this has been about storage not os disks.

But either way you wouldn't want to put a os on a qvo either lol

Why not? I have and it's fine.

SIW2 · Jan 17, 2022

Dch48 said:
Why not? I have and it's fine.

I expect it is. Probably depends on the use scenario. I have an old mx300 which doesnt score near the top in those tests, though it works fine for me and has plenty of life left.

Dch48 · Jan 17, 2022

I use an 860 QVO 2.5" drive as my system drive and actually the only drive for everything. I play World of Warcraft, Forza games, Red Dead Redemption 2, Far Cry 6, and any other game I want from it. It works just fine. I used it with my older Gigabyte mobo and was satisfied even though it only ran at half speed because that mobo only has SATA II. At half speed, it was still faster than any HDD. It's much better on the new MSI SATA III board. I could easily upgrade to NVME but don't really see the need.

Dru2 · Jan 17, 2022

Dch48 said:
I use an 860 QVO 2.5" drive as my system drive and actually the only drive for everything. I play World of Warcraft, Forza games, Red Dead Redemption 2, Far Cry 6, and any other game I want from it. It works just fine. I used it with my older Gigabyte MOBO and was satisfied even though it only ran at half speed because that mobo only has SATA II. It's much better on the new MSI SATA III board. I could upgrade to NVME but don't really see the need.

NVMe drives are faster, and work on a faster bus. That's fact. Will you feel that speed, you might, or might not. And like everything else it depends on what you do and what apps are running.

Anyway, I have two Samsung 970 Pro NVMe drives in my system, one as my OS drive (512gig), the other as my photography drive (1TB). They are the fastest drives in my system. I also have three Samsung EVO SATA drives in my system - 2 x 860 EVO drives, and one 850 EVO drive. None of those drives outperform my NVMe drives.

BTW games don't benefit greatly on NVMe drives over SATA SSD drives. And games in general don't greatly benefit from being on SSD drives. You get better load and transition times, but it's not like frame rates massively increase because a game is on an SSD/NVMe drive.