Did you manually update your Secure Boot Keys ?


I'll address the elephant in the room since I don't see any of these threads mention it, i.e., those of us who have unsupported Windows 11 systems, machines that are too old to have the manufacturer supply a BIOS fix. It looks like to me Microsoft's own fix will not work with our machines, and the fixes in these threads won't do anything for us either. Of course I may be missing something in these threads, which is why I agree with the comment about there being a dire need for a tutorial on elevenforums about how to fix Secure Boot come 2026. Though it may be too early in the process for a definitive tutorial. But I've given up following this with any hope of what it means for my unsupported systems except for switching to Secure Boot disabled, which, I should say, I'm not afraid of doing.

I should add, while I'm at it, that I went to the Mosby site on github and don't find any instructions on what to do with any, some, or all of the files listed there. Which is a tad perplexing since I read of those who've used Mosby with success!

I know I'm probably the only one who is this confused but I wanted to add my 2 cents.
You're not alone. For those of us who have older machines, but also aren't certificate experts, hopefully someone will post a step-by-step process that adds all of the new required certificates and revokes the old ones. I read that Mosby is already going to update his/her script...hopefully it will be low risk and easy to implement.
 
Last edited:

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom
    CPU
    Intel i7-7700K
    Motherboard
    Asus Prime Z-270A
    Memory
    32GB 2666Mhz (Kingston Hyper X Fury)
    Graphics Card(s)
    Asus Nvidia 1050Ti
    Sound Card
    N/A
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung C27F390
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    1TB Western Digital SN770 (System) and 2TB Western Digital SN770 (Storage)
    Antivirus
    Windows Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Home
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell/XPS 15 9510
    CPU
    i9-11900H
    Motherboard
    Unknown
    Memory
    32GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Integrated Intel and Nvidia 3050Ti
    Sound Card
    Integrated (Realtek)
    Monitor(s) Displays
    None
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1200 (non-Touch)
    Hard Drives
    2TB SK Hynix P41 Platinum
    Antivirus
    Windows Security
@gunrunnerjohn - About the 2010 certificates, this is what I found from here:

Except I did not have this motherboard installed until June 10, 2025 so I am not sure where that DBX entry came from. Not sure if this is the reason a lot of my ISOs under VenToy with Secure Boot Disabled will BSOD with Kernel Security Check failure or not.

  • June 9, 2025 – New content signed after this date will be signed with the new certificates, so the content will not come with an expiration date.

  • July 4, 2025 – Any content signed before June 9, 2025, will expire as the Microsoft Code Signing PCA 2010 and the Windows PCA 2010 expire on this day.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
Correct, that works just fine to nuke the Windows 2011 certificate. However, leaving the other one enabled seems to offer a security hole, so I'd like to plug that hole. As far as the extra certificate, I'm not going to concern myself with it as I've never seen it mentioned before now. If I deal with the two 2011 certificates and get them revoked and entered into the DBX database, I'll be a happy camper. If I don't have that 3rd certificate, it's hard to see how it can be exploited! :LOL:
LOL, I think the 2010 certificate did exist and it's seen in screenshots of others as well such as here:

The question is what happened to all the 2010 DB certificates since I would think it had to exist before? I wouldn't know as this system is on a motherboard that I did not install until June 10, 2025. And I didn't even do the keys until sometime in August 2025.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
When I open select only option I get is to upload ISO image
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Antec/Case
    CPU
    Intel i5-10600kf
    Motherboard
    GIGABYTE Z590 UD AC
    Memory
    32gb corsair vengerance pro
    Graphics Card(s)
    AMD RX 6500XT
    Sound Card
    onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    40" Hisense
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 850
    Samsung 870
    Seagate 2TB
    PSU
    EVGA GQ 750
I guess I never downloaded any of that content, because I sure haven't seen the 2010 certificate until you posted your display. Everything else posted had as most the two Microsoft supplied ones, the Windows and Microsoft 3rd party one.

I did see a post that had both certificates revoked and in the DBX database. I'm thinking that maybe I do the revocation in the BIOS setup.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14500
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M G P WIFI
    Memory
    64GB DDR4
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce RTX 4060
    Sound Card
    Chipset Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LG 45" Ultragear, Acer 24" 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    5120x1440, 1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 3D NAND NVMe M.2 SSD (O/S)
    Silicon Power 2TB US75 NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 2280 SSD (backup)
    Crucial BX500 2TB 3D NAND (2nd backup)
    Seagate 4TB Ironwolf, rotating HDD archive files
    External off-line backup Drives: 2 NVMe 4TB drives in external enclosures
    PSU
    Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W
    Case
    LIAN LI LANCOOL 216 E-ATX PC Case
    Cooling
    Lots of fans!
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
  • Operating System
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14400
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M DS3H AX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel 700 Embedded GPU
    Sound Card
    Realtek Embedded
    Monitor(s) Displays
    27" HP 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 eD NAND PCIe SSD
    Samsung EVO 990 2TB NVMe Gen4 SSD
    Samsung 2TB SATA SSD
    PSU
    Thermaltake Smart BM3 650W
    Case
    Okinos Micro ATX Case
    Cooling
    Fans
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
You're not alone. For those of us who have older machines, but also aren't certificate experts, hopefully someone will post a step-by-step process that adds all of the new required certificates and revokes the old ones. I read that Mosby is already going to update his/her script...although I'm admittedly a little hesitant seeing that it adds its own certificate to a system...based on screenshots in this thread.
Yes, I think all it really does is add the PK as in Platform Key, not sure if we can use the existing PK or do we have to update that as well if not using Mosby.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
I guess I never downloaded any of that content, because I sure haven't seen the 2010 certificate until you posted your display. Everything else posted had as most the two Microsoft supplied ones, the Windows and Microsoft 3rd party one.

I did see a post that had both certificates revoked and in the DBX database. I'm thinking that maybe I do the revocation in the BIOS setup.
Yes, I have no idea where the 2010 DBX came from unless it came that way from Dell because the motherboard did not exist until June 10, 2025 and I did not do anything other than the Microsoft article and Mosby. There are only 4 certificates, Microsoft's method only adds the Windows UEFI CA 2023. Mosby adds Windows UEFI CA 2023, Microsoft Corporation KEK 2K CA 2023, Microsoft Corporation UEFI CA 2023. I still had to manually add Microsoft Option ROM UEFI CA 2023 manually in the BIOS using the bin file with the hint mentioned by the Mosby author.

The question is how they revoked both since remember all the certificate adding and revoking is all just a setting in one registry key. @garlin seems to be the one who atleast knows the 0x* number to use.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
I ran Mosby a few weeks ago to get all that stuff, but it doesn't have an option to add stuff to the DBX database, or at least it didn't a month or so ago. This is a fast moving target, so maybe things have happened after the fact since I did my initial updates.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14500
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M G P WIFI
    Memory
    64GB DDR4
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce RTX 4060
    Sound Card
    Chipset Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LG 45" Ultragear, Acer 24" 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    5120x1440, 1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 3D NAND NVMe M.2 SSD (O/S)
    Silicon Power 2TB US75 NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 2280 SSD (backup)
    Crucial BX500 2TB 3D NAND (2nd backup)
    Seagate 4TB Ironwolf, rotating HDD archive files
    External off-line backup Drives: 2 NVMe 4TB drives in external enclosures
    PSU
    Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W
    Case
    LIAN LI LANCOOL 216 E-ATX PC Case
    Cooling
    Lots of fans!
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
  • Operating System
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14400
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M DS3H AX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel 700 Embedded GPU
    Sound Card
    Realtek Embedded
    Monitor(s) Displays
    27" HP 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 eD NAND PCIe SSD
    Samsung EVO 990 2TB NVMe Gen4 SSD
    Samsung 2TB SATA SSD
    PSU
    Thermaltake Smart BM3 650W
    Case
    Okinos Micro ATX Case
    Cooling
    Fans
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
I ran Mosby a few weeks ago to get all that stuff, but it doesn't have an option to add stuff to the DBX database, or at least it didn't a month or so ago. This is a fast moving target, so maybe things have happened after the fact since I did my initial updates.
When I ran rufus earlier today to help @starchase - it said there is a update to the DBX database, but it never said what changed. -x is the only option mentioned on the Mosby page which says Microsoft Windows Production PCA 2011 for the DBX. If it wasn't you in the other thread asking about Mosby, I would probably never have gotten Mosby to work.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
I found Mosby quite handy to get most of the job done, I just want to "finish" the job. :giggle:
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14500
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M G P WIFI
    Memory
    64GB DDR4
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce RTX 4060
    Sound Card
    Chipset Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LG 45" Ultragear, Acer 24" 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    5120x1440, 1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 3D NAND NVMe M.2 SSD (O/S)
    Silicon Power 2TB US75 NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 2280 SSD (backup)
    Crucial BX500 2TB 3D NAND (2nd backup)
    Seagate 4TB Ironwolf, rotating HDD archive files
    External off-line backup Drives: 2 NVMe 4TB drives in external enclosures
    PSU
    Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W
    Case
    LIAN LI LANCOOL 216 E-ATX PC Case
    Cooling
    Lots of fans!
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
  • Operating System
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14400
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M DS3H AX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel 700 Embedded GPU
    Sound Card
    Realtek Embedded
    Monitor(s) Displays
    27" HP 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 eD NAND PCIe SSD
    Samsung EVO 990 2TB NVMe Gen4 SSD
    Samsung 2TB SATA SSD
    PSU
    Thermaltake Smart BM3 650W
    Case
    Okinos Micro ATX Case
    Cooling
    Fans
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
I found Mosby quite handy to get most of the job done, I just want to "finish" the job. :giggle:
Yes except I couldn't get the Microsoft Option ROM UEFI CA 2023 to install using Mosby. I had to use the bin file in the bios to do it. If I did it with -db filename.cer, it would say Security Violation which means I need to delete all keys in the BIOS.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
Dell has published a knowledge base article about the 2011 certificate expiration (this concerns Windows 10 and 11):

In it, there's a list of computers that is updated monthly. Mine isn't there, but I hope it will be if things go wrong with Mosby.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I just saw that NVIDIA GPUs will be affected. After a quick search, there's a thread on Reddit. Someone contacted Palit, who replied that NVIDIA was working with Microsoft on this issue:
I also hope there will be a vBIOS with a 2023 certificate. My Dell has an NVIDIA 1060.

Disabling Secure Boot as a solution for computers that support Windows 11 is disappointing.

It's late, I'm going to sleep.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    windows 11
Dell has published a knowledge base article about the 2011 certificate expiration (this concerns Windows 10 and 11):

In it, there's a list of computers that is updated monthly. Mine isn't there, but I hope it will be if things go wrong with Mosby.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I just saw that NVIDIA GPUs will be affected. After a quick search, there's a thread on Reddit. Someone contacted Palit, who replied that NVIDIA was working with Microsoft on this issue:
I also hope there will be a vBIOS with a 2023 certificate. My Dell has an NVIDIA 1060.

Disabling Secure Boot as a solution for computers that support Windows 11 is disappointing.

It's late, I'm going to sleep.
Thanks for the Dell link... Mines is not there either as the Dell XPS 15 9570's last BIOS update was in 2022 or earlier with v1.27.0. I am using the Dell Precision 5530's BIOS v1.42.0 as the Precision 5530 shares the same motherboard as the Dell XPS 15 9570, only difference is the GPU, the XPS uses the GeForce while the 5530 uses the Quadra I believe. They used to share the same BIOS but Linux uses with the 9570 still have newer BIOSes. I am glad I have both the Intel GPU and the nVidia GPU in the notebook which seems to at least be good with the second problem.

I am having problems with Secure Boot off booting some WinPE USB's using Ventoy. Only Hiren's BootCD still works, everything else will BSOD with Kernel Security Check Failure. a UUPDump Windows 11 24H2 Beta ISO boots fine as well.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    WindowsXP/7/8/8.1/10/11,Linux,Android,FreeBSD Unix
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-8750H 8th Gen 2.2Ghz up to 4.1Ghz
    Motherboard
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Memory
    64GB using 2x32GB CL16 Mushkin redLine modules
    Graphics Card(s)
    Intel UHD 630 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti with 4GB DDR5
    Sound Card
    Realtek ALC3266-CG
    Monitor(s) Displays
    15.6" 4K Touch UltraHD 3840x2160 made by Sharp
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160 4K UltraHD
    Hard Drives
    Samsung MZ-V9P4T0B/AM 990 PRO 4TB PCIe®4.0 NVMe™ M.2 SSD was Toshiba KXG60ZNV1T02 NVMe 1TB SSD
    PSU
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Case
    Dell XPS 15 9570
    Cooling
    Stock
    Keyboard
    Stock
    Mouse
    SwitftPoint ProPoint
    Internet Speed
    Comcast/XFinity 1.44Gbps/42.5Mbps
    Browser
    Microsoft EDGE (Chromium based) & Google Chrome
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender that came with Windows
So I was just wondering something ...

Since all the certificate validation/invalidation is based on what the current month/day/year is, why not just set the CMOS clock in the BIOS back to say 2020?

As the BIOS starts up, it sees the year is 2020 and all is good, right? Certificates valid, all is good, boot up and load windows.

Then windows is running back in 2020, but you can then network sync to the current time and get back to the present day and all is good, timewise.

What am I missing? Why would this not work?

I mention this because I dual boot my laptop with either Windows or Linux via swapping out a disk carrier. After I boot and run Linux,
and swap back to the Windows disk, after boot the time the system has is always off by 7 hours (which is exactly the UTC offset to where I am).
So it would appear Linux resets the system clock to be UTC based instead of PDT based.

Running windows after linux I have to go into the Time panel and do a network time sync, and then the time goes back to being correct.

So why would not playing with the BIOS clock setting not fool the BIOS/UEFI boot into accepting the old cert's as valid and unexpired?
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win11 25H2 26200.7623
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo P520
    CPU
    Intel XEON W-2245 8c/16t
    Memory
    128GB DDR4-2933 ECC
    Graphics Card(s)
    Nvidia Quadro K4200
    Sound Card
    Bultin
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LCD 24in
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1200
    Hard Drives
    1TB SSD system, 16TB data 3.5in HDD, 16TB backup 3.5in HDD
    PSU
    900W
    Cooling
    Air
    Internet Speed
    1Gb
    Browser
    Firefox & Chrome
    Antivirus
    MalwareBytes
  • Operating System
    Win10 22H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo T530
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-3520m
    Memory
    16GB
    Graphics card(s)
    integrated CPU graphics
    Hard Drives
    1TB SSD
    Internet Speed
    1Gb
    Browser
    Fiefox & Chrome
    Antivirus
    Malwarebytes
As a simple home user I have read through a lot of this 26 page long thread, and as well Microsoft's revocation instructions, and have a few questions.

First, since it seems to post changes to the keys in firmware DB and DBX, how will this affect future BIOS updates for computers that have had all the mitigations and revocations?

Will this inevitably mean Windows will not boot up after a BIOS update with Secure Boot enabled until some fixes are also performed from within Windows first? If so, does Windows do that automatically or is this going to be something we'd have to do?

And last: what stops the bad actors from just taking over the 2023 signed bootfile as they can the 2011 signed bootfile? Meaning Black Lotus could be changed by the them to be planted even on a "fixed" machine, i.e., has the 2011 signed bootfile untrusted and uses a 2023 signed bootfile .

I do understand the 2023 certificate is needed regardless since the 2011 certificate is expiring.
 
Last edited:

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 5800X
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B550M Aorus Pro
    Memory
    GSkill 3200, 2x8GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    MSI RX 6800 XT Gaming Z
    Sound Card
    on-board Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    MSI 180hz
    Screen Resolution
    1440p
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 980 Pro, Samsung 870 Evo, generic PCIe NVME, WD 1TB 2.5" laptop spinner
    PSU
    Corsair RM 650
    Case
    mATX
    Cooling
    BeQuiet 240mm AIO and a bunch of case fans
    Keyboard
    one that clacks softly
    Mouse
    logitech
    Internet Speed
    bunches of bps
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Windows' own
  • Operating System
    Win11 Pro
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY
    CPU
    Ryzen 7 1700
    Motherboard
    GA-AB350M G-3
    Memory
    16GB DDR4
    Graphics card(s)
    RX-480
    Sound Card
    In-Built Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung
    Screen Resolution
    1440p
    Hard Drives
    NVME/SSD's
    PSU
    Thermaltake BX1 550W
    Case
    Some junky thing
    Cooling
    ThermalTake Assassin(?)
    Browser
    FF/Edge
    Antivirus
    Whatever Windows does
    Other Info
    Secure Boot enabled updated to 2023 CA keys, TPM2.0 enabled with system drive Bitlocker'd.
PSA: Secure Boot 2026 June cert expiry can block older NVIDIA GOPs at POST
Right. Finally. I'm thrilled. I was yelling to deaf ears about this problem in many posts, only to hear “NVIDIA good, gives you update, you good, stop yell”.

The new cert was issued in 2023. A VBIOS ROM couldn't have been signed with the cert that hasn't been issued. This means that “older” is by definition at most 2 years old. At most. Assuming that Microsoft started double-signing the OpROMs on the day of its issuance. No, they suddenly started the whole kipesh about this in this February. In reality, don't expect any video card older than 6 months today to work after July. I could not purchase an RTX3070Ti for a year (I didn't want to pay $2K for it, and couldn't find any listed at a sensible price that were in stock). I made a compromise with myself at $900: when the RTX5000 series was announced, the prices dropped for a short second. Now it's a year and a half old. And no, it's not signed by the new cert at all. It's an older NVIDIA card. It's obsolete. And, since most of NVIDIA cards (that's 90% of video cards in home use) are “older, obsolete cards” now, imagine what's going to happen.

Everyone will need a new GPU card. A brand new GPU card. The market of used cards is closed, effective now. And if now we're so short of GPUs, think of them as made of pure 100% unobtanium after people realise the scale of the disaster that is unfolding.

Of course, most people wouldn't buy cards whose cost approaches that of a small car. Everybody whose computer allows turning Secure Boot off, will. And Secure Boot was an attempt to address a real problem: rootkits. The BlackLotus incident revealed that… let's put it, not very responsible people who try to break through and plant a rootkit into your PC invented quite advanced techniques. And now they're aware that most computers won't even have SB any more in 9 months. They're getting ready, and many will be, the Dark Web is a vast market. If you leave SB on, your PC will turn into a pumpkin at the twelfth bell. If you turn SB off, your PC will turn into an evil pumpkin, listening for the commands from the control centre to begin an attack (the distributed attack is unnoticeable to the PC owner — it's the scale that makes them work). That's until another rootkit comes in, encrypts your evil pumpkin's disk, and then gives clear instructions on how to pay the ransom. Which you better don't do, as it will be encrypted monthly anyway, by a different actor each time. Neither choice is good. Whoopsie.

The real choice is, either just stop using computers — you can, but don't connect it to the Internet, or buy a video card at a price of a small car so you can have Secure Boot back. You'll eventually be able to grab the last one available at this price. It's not gonna be quick, there are a lot of people ready to spend more money than me or you, but in a few months of shopping you'll be able to get one, if you're lucky (I, for one, did; the only difference is the price). Whoopsie.

NVIDIA will update cards out of warranty? Why would they??? Because otherwise your out-of-warranty card won't work? So what? They completed their contract obligations. By law, the CEO, C-team and the whole business works for the investors, the shareholders. If they give you a free update, they lose a sale. Shareholders would have the full right to sue them, and in fact will, if they update tens of millions of cards and lose this many sales. I'm sorry, but this is how the invisible hand works. NVIDIA owes you and me nothing at all: our cards worked the whole year, the warranty period, which expired, and that's it. NVIDIA owes only to shareholders. And, unlike Microsoft, they didn't push for the ill-conceived Secure Boot, they did not monopolise the signing of boot components and drivers — Microsoft did (with the release of Windows 8; before that, they allowed OEMs to sign).

You can't say that there's even a sliver of NVIDIA's fault. NVIDIA would not give you an update for free even if the law permitted that because they have absolutely no incentive to do that, they made no mistake, and no one may hold them even indirectly responsible for this disaster. Giving you a free update would put them into legal hot water, and they have no arguments to the investors and the Board why they feel obliged to fix at their expense what Microsoft broke. They're disincentivised from updating your VBIOS — doubly, by the market and by law. And they won't. When the press asks, they reply that “they're aware of the issue, and are working with the OEMs.” As if there is anyone in the industry unaware of the issue, or they didn't work with the OEMs every day for the past 30 years. I don't understand how this response could be interpreted as a promise to update tens of millions of cards. People just wish a miracle to happen, so much so that they hear a hard promise to fix the issue in deliberately meaningless responses. Well... what can I say...
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 26100.6584 or later, release channel
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP Spectre x360, 2023 model, customized.
    CPU
    i7 13th gen
    Motherboard
    OEM
    Memory
    64GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Iris Xe on Soc + NVIDIA 4050, on-board
    Sound Card
    OEM on-board: Realtek HD; ext. USB: Scarlett Solo Gen. 4 by FocusRite Audio Eng. Ltd., UK.
    Monitor(s) Displays
    OEM 16" 4k OLED panel w/touch and pen
    Screen Resolution
    3840×2400
    Hard Drives
    Western Digital NVMe 2TB
    PSU
    OEM
    Case
    OEM
    Cooling
    OEM
    Keyboard
    OEM
    Mouse
    OEM touchpad, Synaptic; Ergo Trackball by Logi, Bluetooth
    Internet Speed
    Cable, 300/20 Mbps
    Browser
    Firefox (beta channel), MS Edge (prod channel)
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    NVIDIA mostly reserved for CUDA development; preferred graphic is the Xe.
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 26100.6584 or later, release channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Quiet PC Ltd., UK. Bespoke.
    CPU
    Intel i7 12th gen
    Motherboard
    ASUS Prime Z-690D P4
    Memory
    128 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel Xe on-Soc + Palit NVIDIA 3070 Ti @ PCIe x16
    Sound Card
    Realtek, on-board; Volt 476P by UA, Inc. (for music production); monitors Klipsch R-51PM on Realtek fiber
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Dell UltraSharp 32 8K, UP3218K
    Screen Resolution
    7680×4320
    Hard Drives
    NVMe Samsung SSD 980 PRO 1TB (SoC x4 PCIe)
    2× NVMe Samsung SSD 980 EVO Plus 2TB (PCH x4 PCIe each)
    PSU
    800W, +35% headroom to requrements.
    Case
    be Quiet! Pure Base 500 Midi tower
    Cooling
    Noctua CPU cooler and case fans, to TDP/airflow spec
    Keyboard
    Code black keys/white case bespoke by WASD Inc., genuine Cherry Clears silent tactile 55/95g silent, added bottom-out dampers @3.5mm
    Mouse
    Ergo Trackball by Logi, Bluetooth
    Internet Speed
    Cable, 300/20 Mbps
    Browser
    Firefox, MS Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    Power protection/back-up: Eaton 5S1500LCD UPS
    Main workstation.
    Also runs a Debian Hyper-V VM, required for xplat work.
    NVIDIA GPU is shared between display and CUDA development/computation.
    Add-on PCIe cards:
    * TP-Link BE7200 Wi-Fi 7 802.11be, 2.4/5/6 GHz 2×2 tri-band
    * ASUS Thunderbolt EX 4
My three PCs have already had the four anti-BlackLotus scripts executed, and the DB, DBX, and bootloaders have been updated.However, for the main point, the KEK, Microsoft's view is that the real work starts now.Currently, a file named KEKUpdateCombined.bin is stored in the System32 folder of each PC, and it seems the KEK is to be updated with the PK signature within this file.Looking into this KEKUpdateCombined file, I see that various manufacturers' PKs are covered, so I believe that if the PK in this file matches my PC's PK, the KEK will likely be updated. Conversely, if my PC's PK is not found in this file, it's predicted that the automatic update from Microsoft will not be able to process it.Unfortunately, on one of my three PCs, I could not find its own PK in this file.Microsoft has announced that "most customers" will automatically receive Secure Boot updates, but some PCs do not fall into that "most."

The KEKUpdateCombined file currently contains over 500 types of PK signatures, but more than half of them belong to a single company, Lenovo, while other major OEMs have only a few to a dozen PKs stored.I'm not sure if this is a sufficient number to cover "most customers."

Regarding KEK updates, there's no immediate risk of the PC failing to boot if the update can't be performed, so it's possible that a certain number of PCs that cannot be updated are accounted for in their plan.However, when thinking about the future, tools like Mosby will be the last resort for PCs that cannot find their own PK in KEKUpdateCombined.By next June, I think we first need to understand the state of our own PCs and know early on whether leaving them as they are will be an issue.Otherwise, we will be facing the dangers of both vulnerabilities and boot failure.For that reason, I think checking KEKUpdateCombined is important.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows11
Right. Finally. I'm thrilled. I was yelling to deaf ears about this problem in many posts, only to hear “NVIDIA good, gives you update, you good, stop yell”.

The new cert was issued in 2023. A VBIOS ROM couldn't have been signed with the cert that hasn't been issued. This means that “older” is by definition at most 2 years old. At most. Assuming that Microsoft started double-signing the OpROMs on the day of its issuance. No, they suddenly started the whole kipesh about this in this February. In reality, don't expect any video card older than 6 months today to work after July. I could not purchase an RTX3070Ti for a year (I didn't want to pay $2K for it, and couldn't find any listed at a sensible price that were in stock). I made a compromise with myself at $900: when the RTX5000 series was announced, the prices dropped for a short second. Now it's a year and a half old. And no, it's not signed by the new cert at all. It's an older NVIDIA card. It's obsolete. And, since most of NVIDIA cards (that's 90% of video cards in home use) are “older, obsolete cards” now, imagine what's going to happen.

Everyone will need a new GPU card. A brand new GPU card. The market of used cards is closed, effective now. And if now we're so short of GPUs, think of them as made of pure 100% unobtanium after people realise the scale of the disaster that is unfolding.

Of course, most people wouldn't buy cards whose cost approaches that of a small car. Everybody whose computer allows turning Secure Boot off, will. And Secure Boot was an attempt to address a real problem: rootkits. The BlackLotus incident revealed that… let's put it, not very responsible people who try to break through and plant a rootkit into your PC invented quite advanced techniques. And now they're aware that most computers won't even have SB any more in 9 months. They're getting ready, and many will be, the Dark Web is a vast market. If you leave SB on, your PC will turn into a pumpkin at the twelfth bell. If you turn SB off, your PC will turn into an evil pumpkin, listening for the commands from the control centre to begin an attack (the distributed attack is unnoticeable to the PC owner — it's the scale that makes them work). That's until another rootkit comes in, encrypts your evil pumpkin's disk, and then gives clear instructions on how to pay the ransom. Which you better don't do, as it will be encrypted monthly anyway, by a different actor each time. Neither choice is good. Whoopsie.

The real choice is, either just stop using computers — you can, but don't connect it to the Internet, or buy a video card at a price of a small car so you can have Secure Boot back. You'll eventually be able to grab the last one available at this price. It's not gonna be quick, there are a lot of people ready to spend more money than me or you, but in a few months of shopping you'll be able to get one, if you're lucky (I, for one, did; the only difference is the price). Whoopsie.

NVIDIA will update cards out of warranty? Why would they??? Because otherwise your out-of-warranty card won't work? So what? They completed their contract obligations. By law, the CEO, C-team and the whole business works for the investors, the shareholders. If they give you a free update, they lose a sale. Shareholders would have the full right to sue them, and in fact will, if they update tens of millions of cards and lose this many sales. I'm sorry, but this is how the invisible hand works. NVIDIA owes you and me nothing at all: our cards worked the whole year, the warranty period, which expired, and that's it. NVIDIA owes only to shareholders. And, unlike Microsoft, they didn't push for the ill-conceived Secure Boot, they did not monopolise the signing of boot components and drivers — Microsoft did (with the release of Windows 8; before that, they allowed OEMs to sign).

You can't say that there's even a sliver of NVIDIA's fault. NVIDIA would not give you an update for free even if the law permitted that because they have absolutely no incentive to do that, they made no mistake, and no one may hold them even indirectly responsible for this disaster. Giving you a free update would put them into legal hot water, and they have no arguments to the investors and the Board why they feel obliged to fix at their expense what Microsoft broke. They're disincentivised from updating your VBIOS — doubly, by the market and by law. And they won't. When the press asks, they reply that “they're aware of the issue, and are working with the OEMs.” As if there is anyone in the industry unaware of the issue, or they didn't work with the OEMs every day for the past 30 years. I don't understand how this response could be interpreted as a promise to update tens of millions of cards. People just wish a miracle to happen, so much so that they hear a hard promise to fix the issue in deliberately meaningless responses. Well... what can I say...
Still using a 3080 Ti bought in 2021.
Secure boot not enabled , but the BIOS defaults to Enabled every time I flash it

Luckily my CPU has on-board graphics, so I can get into BIOS with that, then disable secure boot
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 25H2 (RP channel)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    MSI
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core
    Motherboard
    MEG X870E Godlike
    Memory
    64GB Corsair Titanium 6000/CL30
    Graphics Card(s)
    MSI Suprim 5080 SOC
    Sound Card
    Soundblaster AE-9
    Monitor(s) Displays
    ASUS TUF Gaming VG289Q
    Screen Resolution
    3840x2160
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 9100 Pro 4TB (gen 5 x4, system drive/games)
    Samsung 990 Pro 2TB
    Samsung 980 Pro 2TB
    Samsung 870 Evo 4TB
    Samsung 870 Evo 2TB
    Samsung T9 4TB
    PSU
    Seasonic PX-2200
    Case
    Bequiet! Dark Base Pro 901
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15S Chromax black
    Keyboard
    Logitech G915 X (wired)
    Mouse
    Logitech G903 with PowerPlay charger
    Internet Speed
    900Mb/sec
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
Thanks for the Dell link... Mines is not there either as the Dell XPS 15 9570's last BIOS update was in 2022 or earlier with v1.27.0. I am using the Dell Precision 5530's BIOS v1.42.0 as the Precision 5530 shares the same motherboard as the Dell XPS 15 9570, only difference is the GPU, the XPS uses the GeForce while the 5530 uses the Quadra I believe. They used to share the same BIOS but Linux uses with the 9570 still have newer BIOSes. I am glad I have both the Intel GPU and the nVidia GPU in the notebook which seems to at least be good with the second problem.

I am having problems with Secure Boot off booting some WinPE USB's using Ventoy. Only Hiren's BootCD still works, everything else will BSOD with Kernel Security Check Failure. a UUPDump Windows 11 24H2 Beta ISO boots fine as well.
My latest BIOS is from 2023 and doesn't have the 2023 certificate.
I also have both Intel GPUs and an Nvidia GPU.

I think some ISOs require Secure Boot to boot, but I don't know if that should cause a BSOD.

I'll wait until the last minute. And even wait afterward by disabling Secure Boot if there's no BIOS for my laptop. Hopefully, there'll be an official BIOS, an improved Mosby or other apps with tutorials for Dell laptops. If after the certificate expires, many Windows 11 computers remain unsecured, it'll surface online, and then maybe OEMs and motherboard manufacturers will release BIOSes, the same for Nvidia and AMD with their graphics cards.

@Cy_kkm
I'm waiting...
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    windows 11
So I was just wondering something ...

Since all the certificate validation/invalidation is based on what the current month/day/year is, why not just set the CMOS clock in the BIOS back to say 2020?

As the BIOS starts up, it sees the year is 2020 and all is good, right? Certificates valid, all is good, boot up and load windows.

Then windows is running back in 2020, but you can then network sync to the current time and get back to the present day and all is good, timewise.

What am I missing? Why would this not work?
I think you should try this and you'll quickly see why it's a bad idea! :p :p

When your computer time is years off from the actual time, a number of things are not going to work, many websites will choke when you access them, etc. Backup programs that depend on date stamps will get very confused, etc.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14500
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M G P WIFI
    Memory
    64GB DDR4
    Graphics Card(s)
    GeForce RTX 4060
    Sound Card
    Chipset Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    LG 45" Ultragear, Acer 24" 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    5120x1440, 1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 3D NAND NVMe M.2 SSD (O/S)
    Silicon Power 2TB US75 NVMe PCIe Gen4 M.2 2280 SSD (backup)
    Crucial BX500 2TB 3D NAND (2nd backup)
    Seagate 4TB Ironwolf, rotating HDD archive files
    External off-line backup Drives: 2 NVMe 4TB drives in external enclosures
    PSU
    Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W
    Case
    LIAN LI LANCOOL 216 E-ATX PC Case
    Cooling
    Lots of fans!
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
  • Operating System
    Win 11 Pro 25H2, Build 26200.8524
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Brew
    CPU
    Intel Core i5 14400
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte B760M DS3H AX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel 700 Embedded GPU
    Sound Card
    Realtek Embedded
    Monitor(s) Displays
    27" HP 1080p
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Crucial P310 2TB 2280 PCIe Gen4 eD NAND PCIe SSD
    Samsung EVO 990 2TB NVMe Gen4 SSD
    Samsung 2TB SATA SSD
    PSU
    Thermaltake Smart BM3 650W
    Case
    Okinos Micro ATX Case
    Cooling
    Fans
    Keyboard
    Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000
    Mouse
    Logitech G305
    Internet Speed
    Verizon FiOS 1GB
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Malware Bytes & Windows Defender Security
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