FRAMEWORK laptops: Modularity or Miniaturization?

Dru2 · Feb 2, 2022

Edwin said:
I just might sign up over there! Same forum software as here, by the looks of it!!!

It is. I'm also there :wink:

So you're connected via USB cable? Best way to get a pure sound.

Edwin · Feb 2, 2022

Dru2 said:
So you're connected via USB cable?

Unfortunately not!

3.5mm and Bluetooth only!

Dru2 · Feb 2, 2022

I have my DAC hooked up to my PC via USB via ASIO driver. The DAC itself than drives my speakers.

The DAC takes USB, Analog, and Digital inputs chosen by selector switch.

Ghot · Feb 2, 2022

Time out!

There is no difference in the cable itself. Wires are wires, shielding is shielding.
As far as the cable itself is concerned, the thicker the wires and the better the shielding... the better the sound.

The audio source, is of two types... analog or digital. Of the two, analog is closer to real life.
Since your ear only does analog.
Computers can only output a digital signal, no matter what conversions you try... you're starting with a digital signal.

Like the old saying... you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
No matter what you spend on a DAC... it's still starting with a gimped digital signal.

When someone, sings, for example... the sound comes out... analog.
A digital representation of that sound is at best... an approximation.

There is nothing you can do to a digital signal that will turn it back into the original analog signal.
A DAC at best does a guesstimation. That's as good as a DAC... CAN get.

Edwin · Feb 2, 2022

The source of the media is where it all starts!
My Bose Companion 5's are hooked up to my Desktop PC via USB...,
some stuff sounds great, some sounds like crap!

Ghot · Feb 2, 2022

Edwin said:
The source of the media is where it all starts!
My Bose Companion 5's are hooked up to my Desktop PC via USB...,
some stuff sounds great, some sounds like crap!

Exactly... and anything that comes out of a computer is digital, whether you use a USB or 3.5mm cable.

Now if your USB cable is 14 gauge and well shielded, it will sound as good as the source.
But the same is true for a 14 ga., well shielded 3.5mm cable.

The lower the gauge of the cable (thicker), the less "line loss".
The better the shielding of the cable, the less interference, from things like power cords, monitor cables, etc.

This is ABBA _ Take a Chance on Me, waveform (granted the source is digital). But can you imagine what a 120v 60 cycle power cord could do to this if the cables weren't shielded?

120v, 60 cycle wall power...

Not to scale, obviously. The wall power waveform would be like 50x taller (amplitude).
The "time" scale (horizontal) is off too. But without an oscilloscope, I can't tell by how much.
Remembering from 45 years ago, when I actually worked with oscilloscopes, I'd say the time scale is about right.

Something like this...

Dru2 · Feb 2, 2022

Oh boy, another theoretical deep dive debate over audio signals.

No thanks

Ghot · Feb 3, 2022

Dru2 said:
Oh boy, another theoretical deep dive debate over audio signals.

No thanks

Yeah. It's been going on for decades. :/

Haydon · Feb 3, 2022

The small modules can be fitted in bigger laptop cases with bigger (15", 17") screens.

Makes me think of the NUC, though, even a giant like Intel could not make them really popular.

barman58 · Feb 3, 2022

Personally I would prefer all portable devices, laptops or larger tablets), move to a modular design system, both the ultra portable and portable desktop models. This would allow the flexibility that is found with the Desktop Markets where you can either have your hardware built to your own specification, built to a standard setup for the end usage, (such as desktops and laptops for office work and salespersons)

If I go to purchase a desktop or specify for others, I can select a standard model for cost control, but modify some components to suit specialist needs.

If dealing with specifying a laptop I would normally have to buy the top of the range to get the one specialist function and pay for a lot of functionality that is useless for my needs.

This may appear to mean that the manufacturers will lose money, but as for example the car industry, the single components added can be charged at a higher price than when they are included in a specific build to close the gap in earnings, and the user will save costs too

Hazel123 · Feb 3, 2022

Ghot said:

So where can you find these Mouse computers and what are they exactly?

Hazel123 · Feb 3, 2022

TheMystic said:
This is a new type of laptop in town:

Framework

Reviewers are all extremely happy with the idea. Linus (LinusTechTips) is one of the investors too.

Idea is great and highly welcome in today's times when miniaturization and intent to lock devices down to make them unrepairable is the choice of OEMs.

I'm not the type of person who will drop gadgets or be rough with them. All my purchases tend to last a very long time and work fine without giving problems. So that makes this decision a little difficult for me.

Miniaturization comes with its own benefit of compactness and great looking devices. This also means that one has to make the right decision during purchase and never look back.

So what would you prefer?

Interesting. So a 13" computer that's upgradeable?

Hazel123 · Feb 3, 2022

Like - 1.5mm key travel. Like - upgradeability. Not keen on 3:2 ratio. I think it's great. Be good if they came in different sizes - eg a 14" one.

TheMystic · Feb 3, 2022

jimbo45 said:
look at people using tiny mobile phone screens

Being handheld and the ability to easily change the distance from the screen could explain why it is easier to use the much smaller mobile device than the smaller laptop screens. Or it could simply be the nature of work that is accomplished using the two devices. For example, working with a spreadsheet on a smartphone is a difficult activity.

jimbo45 said:
Big heavy laptops with huge screens don't help at all. Smaller ones ruggidized if possible are real the king in these situations.

I don't have the kind of usage you have used in your example, but I compact size, lightweight and portability factors make this form factor a great choice as a laptop for me.

The-Hive said:
I see your point @jimbo45 My 17" laptop never leaves the desk at home. My 15'' laptop is a dell inspiron very light but is never used outside. The 17"Alienware is so heavy and needs 2 power supplies it really isn't portable. I hope you could see my point that I need a certain size monitor because of an eye injury

I would personally prefer to have a Desktop than a heavy duty laptop. That would give a lot more flexibility in terms of upgradability, repairability etc.

barman58 said:
Personally I would prefer all portable devices, laptops or larger tablets), move to a modular design system, both the ultra portable and portable desktop models

Absolutely. But modular designs would mean sacrificing compactness.

The only thing of concern is the durability of the locking mechanisms. The Framework laptop modules can be slided into their sockets, that lock into their place when fully slided. Not sure how many times one can slide in and slide out the modules before the locking mechanism starts to act up.

Hazel123 said:
Interesting. So a 13" computer that's upgradeable?

Yes. Everything is upgradeable. You can even change what you want. By that I mean you can change the USB-C port to an HDMI port or a Ethernet port or a SD Card Reader or anything else depending on what you need at any given point of time. Likewise, the internal components are all designed to be easily replaceable.

They have the DIY purchase option too where they'll ship all the parts you order without assembling the laptop. You can then put everything together and assemble the laptop yourself. That's how easy the design is.

The-Hive · Feb 3, 2022

@TheMystic, I see your point, but for me the A51 is fully upgradeable as I have added extra Ram and a second SSD as for my use it never leaves the house

jimbo45 · Feb 3, 2022

TheMystic said:
Being handheld and the ability to easily change the distance from the screen could explain why it is easier to use the much smaller mobile device than the smaller laptop screens. Or it could simply be the nature of work that is accomplished using the two devices. For example, working with a spreadsheet on a smartphone is a difficult activity.

I don't have the kind of usage you have used in your example, but I compact size, lightweight and portability factors make this form factor a great choice as a laptop for me.

I would personally prefer to have a Desktop than a heavy duty laptop. That would give a lot more flexibility in terms of upgradability, repairability etc.

Absolutely. But modular designs would mean sacrificing compactness.

The only thing of concern is the durability of the locking mechanisms. The Framework laptop modules can be slided into their sockets, that lock into their place when fully slided. Not sure how many times one can slide in and slide out the modules before the locking mechanism starts to act up.

Yes. Everything is upgradeable. You can even change what you want. By that I mean you can change the USB-C port to an HDMI port or a Ethernet port or a SD Card Reader or anything else depending on what you need at any given point of time. Likewise, the internal components are all designed to be easily replaceable.

They have the DIY purchase option too where they'll ship all the parts you order without assembling the laptop. You can then put everything together and assemble the laptop yourself. That's how easy the design is.

Hi there
I can just see some people trying without damaging printed circuit connections to connect BIOS / other chips to the circuit board and then put the whole thing together. At least when disassembling a laptop you've got an example of how it all fits together. Assembling one from scratch without clear diagrams and limited experience -- there's only one way that probably ends in 97% of cases -- disappointment and money down the drain.

Cheers
jimbo

The-Hive · Feb 3, 2022

I would never touch a laptop unless I am 100% confident. I have a pdf of the service manuals for both my laptops

Edwin · Feb 3, 2022

The-Hive said:
I would never touch a laptop unless I am 100% confident. I have a pdf of the service manuals for both my laptops

I attempted repairs on my old HP EliteBook..., which is why I now have a brand new Asus VivoBook!!!

It's actually my first brand new Laptop, and I love it! And I hate Laptops!!! :zany:

Does that make any sense!?!?!?

TheMystic · Feb 3, 2022

jimbo45 said:
Hi there
I can just see some people trying without damaging printed circuit connections to connect BIOS / other chips to the circuit board and then put the whole thing together. At least when disassembling a laptop you've got an example of how it all fits together. Assembling one from scratch without clear diagrams and limited experience -- there's only one way that probably ends in 97% of cases -- disappointment and money down the drain.

Cheers
jimbo

For sure, they would be including the required diagrams and written instructions in the box. Besides, the DIY mode of order is one for experienced or enthusiastic users, who are expected to know how to put them together.

My current laptop is a 17" HP Envy. Every time I open it, I damage the keyboard. Presently, only one lock on the keyboard is still present, the rest have all broken and fallen off. I just don't get the point of making this kind of a design, except for making it deliberately difficult to repair. Unfortunately, even for simply cleaning the fan or changing the thermal paste, which are annual affairs, I have to open it completely and I hate doing it. Fortunately, so far the keyboard has held up really well (except for the broken plastic locks) and all keys are fully functional still.

The-Hive said:
I would never touch a laptop unless I am 100% confident. I have a pdf of the service manuals for both my laptops

Where I Iive, I found out that I am the best person to service my own laptop. Atleast I take enough care and try my best. The 'professional' services are sure to give me more headache than solve them.

The-Hive · Feb 3, 2022

Around here we have one computer shop in Salisbury and an IT place in the village I used to work, they were great for getting cheap parts and free work done as we rented the upstairs from them :)