help me decide on best pc backup software

oreyro · Saturday at 1:33 PM

Flipmode said:
"...You really need to be guided down this path better. People should be asking how big is your data pool (what you want to backup?). - Eg. How much data is on C:\?
- Do you have any other drives or partitions?
- Do you have OneDrive or any cloud software?
- How old is your computer and hard disk?
- How much of this data changes per week? and per month?
- Do you run any database software, or development applications?
- Do you run any virtualisation software (Vmware, HyperV, etc)?
- What are your system specifications please? CPU? RAM? Storage?
and so on..."

The devil is hiding in the details…
My program requirements:
- The Backup program must make an exact digital copy of all system disk partitions,
- All files of the Original disk and the restored Copy must be equal in checksum.
- It is unacceptable to delete original files from the Copy and add new files.
- To create a Backup and to Restore from a Backup, I use a flash drive (or DVD) with a bootable image of the Program (i.e., "Backup from the outside"), therefore, all of the above applies to backup from a bootable flash drive (DVD):
1. Acronis – was good until 2012, for Windows 7… For Windows 10, Acronis program:
– does not see the hidden service partition "Backup (MSR)" 16 Mb(UEFI)
- Windows Embedded, IoT editions, Windows 10 LTSB / LTSC are not supported (Acronis True Image)
- after Recovery, changes the file C:\Windows\bootstat.dat
- after restoring from backup, the program modifies these parts of the Registry: [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE] and [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM]

2. Terabyte Drive Image
- The program has a complex interface, so an unprepared User can ruin the disks.
- after Recovery, changes the file C:\Windows\bootstat.dat
- the program does not change the Registry, but incorrectly specifies the drive letters during Backup, so before backup, you must manually assign the correct letters to all drives(You can assign the correct letters in the program settings)..

3. EaseUS - creates hidden files on the System disk after Backup:
C:\{XXX }.CBM
C:\EUMONBMP.SYS
... After that, I stopped further checking. …

4. Macrium Reflect
- changes Registry files after BOOTING from a USB flash drive into Computer memory(!)
for v.7.3. modifies this part of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER]
for v.8 – v.10 modifies these parts of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER] and [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE]
- v.8.1 does not copy files C:\pagefile.sys and C:\hiberfil.sys

5 AOMEI Backupper
- After Restoring from Backup, it changes this part of the Registry [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM]
- Starting from version 6, removes(!) before Backup from the original Windows files:
C:\pagefile.sys; C:\swapfile.sys; C:\hiberfil.sys

NOTE:
part of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER] is a file C:\Users \[Your User]\NTUSER.DAT
part of the Registry [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE] is a file C:\Windows\System32\config\SOFTWARE
part of the Registry [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM] is a file C:\Windows\System32\config\SYSTEM

P.S. Now I using Macrium Reflect 7.3(BOOT CD), because this program fully meets all the requirements, with the exception of Registry changes.
I hope that Macrium Reflect 7.3 uses the Registry only to correctly assign letters to disk partitions.
My System for test: Windows 10 21H2 LTSC x64 [MSDN]; m/b Z77-HD3(BIOS-MBR); HDD WD 500Gb

TairikuOkami · Saturday at 3:11 PM

Helmuuth said:
according to online sources relying on restore points isnt 100% reliable so iam thinking about trying backup software but i want to save it via a USB device thus freeing up space on my pc. never bothered with backing up...and restore points takes up space that i need.

If you keep system partition small, a system backup image will be small as well, especially when compressed.

Helmuuth said:
But still interested in using hasleo, intrigued by it being free

I use it, because it is the only free backup software with PreOS, USB boot is optional.
It takes 17 secs to create a backup and 2 mins to restore it (1 min to boot the PreOS)

Helmut · Saturday at 4:22 PM

Hasleo Emergency disk cannot see Backup Images on Network drives.
That is a major missing feature. For me makes it almost completely useless as main storage space for such purposes is NAS drives.
Somewhat odd as it does a good job of making Images on those same NAS drives.

One thing is for sure, fully test your Application as to whether it meets your needs.

TairikuOkami · Saturday at 4:24 PM

Helmut said:
Hasleo Emergency disk cannot see Backup Images on Network drives.

You need SYSTEM permissions, I have learnt that the hard way.

Code:

takeown /s %computername% /u %username% /f E: /r /d y
icacls E: /inheritance:r
icacls E: /grant:r %username%:(OI)(CI)F /t /l /q /c
icacls E: /grant "System":(OI)(CI)F /t /l /q /c
icacls E: /grant "Users":(OI)(CI)RX /t /l /q /c

mccnavy · Saturday at 4:26 PM

I used Macrium before but moved to Hasleo. So far it has worked great. Generating images (HDD or SSD) is pretty fast and I haven't had any issues restoring backups when needed. Not bad for free.

pietcorus2 · Sunday at 5:04 AM

Macrium ; v.10 modifies these parts of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER] and [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE]............??
WHAT (??) does it "modify " .............does it makes your restore-operation unreliable , after booting ??

oreyro · Sunday at 5:37 AM

pietcorus2 said:
Macrium ; v.10 modifies these parts of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER] and [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE]............??
WHAT (??) does it "modify " .............does it makes your restore-operation unreliable , after booting ??

What is Backup?
The Original and the Copy must be equal in checksum.
Your Operating System is constantly performing copy operations, and each time it checks the Original and the Copy against the checksum.
If you don't check the equality of the original and the copy, then your Operating System will crumble like a house of cards.…
The Macrium Reflect program (as well as many other Backup programs) modifies the Registry files that are located here:
C:\Windows\System32\config\
and here:
C:\Users \[Your User]\NTUSER.DAT
... therefore, strictly speaking, the Macrium Reflect program (like most others) is not a 100% backup program
... by the way, I do not know of any program that can do 100% backup.

PerpetualCycle · Sunday at 5:59 AM

oreyro said:
What is Backup?
The Original and the Copy must be equal in checksum.
Your Operating System is constantly performing copy operations, and each time it checks the Original and the Copy against the checksum.
If you don't check the equality of the original and the copy, then your Operating System will crumble like a house of cards.…
The Macrium Reflect program (as well as many other Backup programs) modifies the Registry files that are located here:
C:\Windows\System32\config\
and here:
C:\Users \[Your User]\NTUSER.DAT
... therefore, strictly speaking, the Macrium Reflect program (like most others) is not a 100% backup program
... by the way, I do not know of any program that can do 100% backup.

Sorry, that is incorrect. Macrium uses windows shadow copy to make a point-in-time backup so it is an exact copy at the time the backup is started. Google it.

Also, it does not change the registry. It is a 100% copy because it uses volume shadow copy ( copy on write) while the backup is in progress.

In addition, the OS does not do checksum verification when it copies something. That would kill performance.

Edited for grumpiness: I wrote that when one of my dogs woke me up in the middle of the night to go out.

Bree · Sunday at 6:22 AM

oreyro said:
Macrium Reflect
- changes Registry files after BOOTING from a USB flash drive into Computer memory(!)
for v.7.3. modifies this part of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER]
for v.8 – v.10 modifies these parts of the Registry [HKEY_CURRENT_USER] and [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE]
- v.8.1 does not copy files C:\pagefile.sys and C:\hiberfil.sys

If you are booting from a recovery USB (or CD) then the only registry that can be modified is that of the currently running OS. That's the WinRE environment running from the RAM drive X: in memory. The OS being backed up is currently offline, it's registry isn't open.

There is nothing in pagefile.sys or hiberfil.sys that needs keeping. These are recreated at the first boot of a restored system anyway.

pietcorus2 · Sunday at 7:05 AM

So, my Macrium-backups are 100% reliable , after restore/reboot......?? :look:

oreyro · Sunday at 7:28 AM

PerpetualCycle said:
Sorry, that is BS. Macrium uses windows shadow copy to make a point-in-time backup so it is an exact copy at the time the backup is started. Google it.
Also, it does not change the registry. It is a 100% copy because it uses shadow copy ( copy on write) while the backup is in progress.
In addition, the OS does not do checksum verification when it copies something. That would kill performance.

No need to hide behind terminology ("Shadow copy", lol), everything can be checked..
1. Make a Macrium Rescue, burn it to DVD.
2. Take any bootable Live CD, burn it to DVD
3. Start the LiveCD and use the checksum checker to save the checksums of all files on the system disk C:
4. Remove the Live CD. Do not start Windows.
5. Download the Macrium Rescue DVD and wait for the program to load into your computer's memory.
6. Close the Macrium program. Do not start Windows.
7. Launch the LiveCD and use the checksum checker to save the checksums of all files on the system disk C:
8. Compare the results obtained in paragraphs (3) and (7)
... The comparison results are HERE

oreyro · Sunday at 8:27 AM

Bree said:
If you are booting from a recovery USB (or CD) then the only registry that can be modified is that of the currently running OS. That's the WinRE environment running from the RAM drive X: in memory. The OS being backed up is currently offline, it's registry isn't open.

There is nothing in pagefile.sys or hiberfil.sys that needs keeping. These are recreated at the first boot of a restored system anyway.

As far as I understand(IMHO), the Macrium are(like other programs) use binary Registry files to correctly assign letters to disk partitions.
But the bootable versions of Macrium change(?) the Registry files immediately after downloading the program!
That is, you will not make a 100% copy, even if you copy by sector, because you have already changed the Original...
... Other programs (Acronis, HOME) modify Registry files only for the Copy (after Recovery), but the Registry files of the Original do not change..
***
The Macrium 8.1 program not only delete, but also "reconstructs" files hiberfil.sys and pagefile.sys
Are you sure that the "reconstruction" of these files will be done correctly on all versions of Windows?
There is no problem disabling Hibernation or enabling Hibernation! Command prompt from the Administrator:
powercfg.exe /hibernate off
or
powercfg.exe /hibernate on
... by the way, Macrium ver 10.0 does not delete files hiberfil.sys and pagefile.sys
The user decides whether to delete it or not....

Bree · Sunday at 8:56 AM

oreyro said:
... by the way, Macrium ver 10.0 does not delete files hiberfil.sys and pagefile.sys
The user decides whether to delete it or not....

The only choice the user has in regard to pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys is whether or not to use Intelligent Sector Copy (the default) or a Forensic copy (every sector will be backed up, used or not, making for a much larger image). By default, while the file directory entries for pagefile/hiberfil will be included in an image, none of their data sectors will be backed up.

Macrium said:
Intelligent Sector Copy
Only backup data blocks that are being used by files on the disk. This significantly reduces the time it takes for backups to complete and reduces the size of the backup files.

The data blocks in Pagefile (pagefile.sys) and hibernation (hiberfil.sys) files will be excluded from images. Data blocks in these files are temporary and not required when Windows starts. These files will be visible in the imaged file system, but will take up zero space in the image file.

Forensic Copy
Backup all data blocks. This may significantly increase the size of image files. e.g., An image of a 1TB file system with only 1GB in use will contain 1TB of data blocks prior to any compression.

Backup Defaults - KnowledgeBase X - Macrium Reflect Knowledgebase

knowledgebase.macrium.com

oreyro · Sunday at 10:05 AM

Bree said:
The only choice the user has in regard to pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys is whether or not to use Intelligent Sector Copy (the default) or a Forensic copy (every sector will be backed up, used or not, making for a much larger image). By default, while the file directory entries for pagefile/hiberfil will be included in an image, none of their data sectors will be backed up.

Backup Defaults - KnowledgeBase X - Macrium Reflect Knowledgebase

knowledgebase.macrium.com

I check the checksums of files before backup and after recovery from backup.
This is an objective analysis.
A program and an Instruction are two different things..

Bree · Sunday at 10:52 AM

oreyro said:
I check the checksums of files before backup and after recovery from backup.
This is an objective analysis.

Well of course the checksums for pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys will be different - but it does not matter one iota!

Let me repeat, not what I think, but what Macrium state clearly in their documentation.

The data blocks in Pagefile (pagefile.sys) and hibernation (hiberfil.sys) files will be excluded from images. Data blocks in these files are temporary and not required when Windows starts.

The image will contain the MFT entries for these files, ie. their file names and the sectors in use, but none of the data from those two files has been saved or will be restored. And why doesn't this matter? Because the data in these files was only relevant to the OS while it was running at the time of the image. On a restart all this data is rendered obsolete and invalid, the OS will immediately overwrite it with current data for its new session.

pietcorus2 · Sunday at 11:46 AM

Bree said:
Well of course the checksums for pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys will be different - but it does not matter one iota!

Let me repeat, not what I think, but what Macrium state clearly in their documentation.

The data blocks in Pagefile (pagefile.sys) and hibernation (hiberfil.sys) files will be excluded from images. Data blocks in these files are temporary and not required when Windows starts.

The image will contain the MFT entries for these files, ie. their file names and the sectors in use, but none of the data from those two files has been saved or will be restored. And why doesn't this matter? Because the data in these files was only relevant to the OS while it was running at the time of the image. On a restart all this data is rendered obsolete and invalid, the OS will immediately overwrite it with current data for its new session.

So , this means a Macrium-backup is 100% reliable , after a backup-restore and reboot...........!!
reliability is the most important issue for all backup-software .......... :wink:

PerpetualCycle · Sunday at 12:12 PM

pietcorus2 said:
So , this means a Macrium-backup is 100% reliable , after a backup-restore and reboot...........!!
reliability is the most important issue for all backup-software ..........

I have done hundreds of restores without a hitch.

oreyro · Sunday at 12:56 PM

Bree said:
Well of course the checksums for pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys will be different - but it does not matter one iota!

When I asked Acronis:
- why don't you copy the hidden "Backup (MSR)" 16 Mb(UEFI) system partition?,
they answered me:
- "we decided that this section is superfluous, you don't need it"
... hey, are you guys smarter than Microsoft? Why don't you make your own Windows?

***
I also always remove Hibernation(hiberfil.sys) by Command Line of Administrator.
But that doesn't mean anything.
The Backup program should copy all files "by default".
Of course, it will be good if the Backup program gives the User the choice not to copy certain files (hiberfil.sys )
For example, there is such a function in the TeraByte Image program (although I do not use this program).
Macrium should also trust the User more.

Bree · Sunday at 2:00 PM

oreyro said:
The Backup program should copy all files "by default".

Please explain what possible need you have for multiple Gbytes of data that just happened to be in virtual memory (swapfile.sys) at the time of the backup.

I'm at a loss for any possible use - 'Chocolate teapot' comes to mind.....

oreyro · Sunday at 4:31 PM

Bree said:
Please explain what possible need you have for multiple Gbytes of data that just happened to be in virtual memory (swapfile.sys) at the time of the backup.

The Macrium 8.1 program deletes files during Backup, and when Restoring from Backup, the Macrium 8.1 program "reconstructs" or "recreates" these deleted files "out of thin air" using some algorithm.
I am not sure that such a "reconstruction" of deleted files will be correct for Windows XP / 7 / 8 / 10 / 11

I'm not willing to take the risk, so I won't use Macrium 8.1.
I have an alternative (Macrium ver. 7.3, 8.0), there are also other Backup programs.

Why does Macrium 8.1 delete files? It's just marketing.
"Our Backup is the smallest"! "Our Backup is the fastest" is a silly slogan for consumers.

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