Modern Standby - Scheduled Tasks

Caledon Ken · Jul 29, 2023

Windows 11 Pro, V22H2 22621.1992

Dell XPS 9720 - all Dell maintenance applied including Firmware.

Through working with the Macrium forum I have learned that schedule tasks do not run on Standby, S0. This means my backups and virus scans do not kick off. I checked when Windows runs maintenance, set for 2:00 am, but cannot enable the check box to wake machine if asleep.

Is there a setting in Group Policies that I can enable ( or disable ) that will allow tasks to run on schedule? I know there is a group policy that will allow networking in standby, Brink has an article outlining steps.

I do not wish to reload OS.

I simple can't believe that MS developed a standard that basically killed the Task Scheduler and pushed even maintenance into the window when the user wants to use device.

Thanks

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Ken,

I have found that setting Power options to Sleep after - Never avoids the problem in S0 Modern standby computers.
- I never put my S0 Modern standby computers to "sleep", which merely affects S0 Modern standby entering one of its later phases.
- It is the Power options, Display off after setting that initiates S0 Modern standby. The computer enters S0 Modern standby when the display goes off and this has nothing to do with the Sleep after setting.
So I can use Task scheduler to run tasks.
Running scripts during S0 Modern standby - my post #86 - ElevenForum

This might also be of interest - Power consumption in sleep - my post #85 - ElevenForum
It shows that S0 Modern standby power consumption is about the same as S3 Sleep and hardly differs between S0 Modern standby Connected standby & S0 Modern standby Disconnected standby.

All the best,
Denis

Caledon Ken · Jul 29, 2023

Thanks.

I'm still having problems with the concept that MS broke the task scheduler and that we have to jump through hoops to make it work.

I can try setting sleep never and see results. I'm fortunate, I run Pro, I have access to policies that say enable network on Standby.

This "feature" obvious was not thought out, quick fix for instant on.

Edit: Set sleep to never. Set screen to shut off after 15 minutes. Set a couple of tasks to run.

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Ken,

Caledon Ken said:
I have access to policies that say enable network on Standby

Everybody does.
Enable or disable Modern Standby connectivity in Windows 10 and Windows 11 - ElevenForumTutorials
I allow mine to use Connected standby except when I change to a particular power plan for which I deliberately disable it.

If you are going to experiment with S0 Modern standby then you might like to be able to monitor its onset/end in Event viewer.
A zipped Custom view definition for this is attached - Power - S0-Sleep-Hibernate transitions It provides for both S0 Modern standby & S3 Sleep computers because I write my Custom view definitions ready to be used on all my computers without having to be altered.
- Unzip it to extract its view definition file [which has an xml extension]
- Open Event viewer
- On the right-hand side, click on Import Custom view...
- Browse to and select the view definition file [xml] you've just unzipped, click on the Open button
- If you want to you can rename it in the view definition Properties dialog that now appears
- Click on OK
- You can now view the results by clicking on the entry within Custom views, on the left-hand side.

- - S3 Sleep & Hibernation can only be distinguished, in a computer that has both, by looking at the Details tab of the resume EventID 1 for Hiber* entries that are greater than 0; resuming from S3 Sleep would show Hiber* entries that have the value 0
Resume from Hibernate, Details tab

Resume from S3 Sleep, Details tab

System hibernates despite hibernate after set to never-resume-s3-sleep-details-tab.png

All the best,
Denis

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Wisewiz - If you are interested in S0 Modern standby then I hope you looked at post #2 as well.

All the best,
Denis

Caledon Ken · Jul 29, 2023

Thanks Denis. When I said I was fortunate to have access to group policies I mentioned Pro. Home edition does not have access that I know of.

So ran three test and at lease on this system it appears S0 is not being set on Screen darkening unless I didn't set right. I will have to read your last post in more detail.

Mt tests.

Test One - Laptop awake, unplugged – backup starts on schedule.

Test Two – Laptop set to never sleep, plugged in, screen shuts off after three minutes, backup runs on schedule

Test Three – Laptop set to never sleep, unplugged, screen shuts off after three minutes, backup runs on schedule.

This implies Standby, on this system, is not being set by screen shutting off. My system shuts off network in Standby on battery and plugged in. (Checked group policies and output from powercfg -a). So basically the no sleep settings (battery and Plugged In) are preventing Sleep / Standby so tasks work.

This paragraph has been edited (policies found)
I should add .... In the BIOS there is a setting to defeat the OS from setting S3. This is off on mine so the OS can be set to S3. There are two policies that can be enable to allow s1-s3 states. I read if OS is changed a reload of the OS is required which I will not do but as these are policies it should not break things.

Still in disbelief that MS knowingly broke task scheduler.

hsehestedt · Jul 29, 2023

Out of curiosity, check this:

Open Control Panel > Power Options > Change plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Sleep > Allow wake timers.

How is this set? If wake timers are allowed, it should allow the system to wake from S0.

NOTE: Please be aware of this...

There is a setting to allow wake timers while on battery and while on AC power. If you allow the system to go to sleep while on AC power and then unplug it, the setting for while on AC power still applies because at the time the system was put to sleep it was on AC power. In other words, it does not transition to the action for while on battery UNLESS it wakes up and then goes back to sleep again while on battery.

Caledon Ken · Jul 29, 2023

Thanks hsehestedt.

I went back and reviewed group policies. Indeed there are two group policies to allow system to use S1-S3 states. One policy for plugged in and one for battery.

First I will try your wake timer.

Caledon Ken · Jul 29, 2023

Wake timers were already enabled for plugged in, I enabled for battery. No change. When this device is in Standby it will not wake up.

So I will run a full backup and decide whether I enable the group policies.

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Ken,

Caledon Ken said:
Home edition does not have access that I know of.

Agreed but all I meant was that Home can still set/unset S0 Modern standby network connectivity.

Caledon Ken said:
it appears S0 is not being set on Screen darkening unless I didn't set right

Ken, Sorry but you are wrong.
S0 Modern standby kicks in when Power options turns off the display. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.
That Event viewer, Custom view I gave you the definition for will demonstrate this.

Caledon Ken said:
Test One - Laptop awake, unplugged – backup starts on schedule.

I cannot comment because the power state is not stated.
An S0 Modern standby computer is always awake unless it is in hibernation or shutdown.
S0 Modern standby is not a sleep state but an idle condition.

Caledon Ken said:
Test Two – Laptop set to never sleep, plugged in, screen shuts off after three minutes, backup runs on schedule
Test Three – Laptop set to never sleep, unplugged, screen shuts off after three minutes, backup runs on schedule.

Yes, exactly as I would expect.

Caledon Ken said:
This implies Standby, on this system, is not being set by screen shutting off.

No, sorry, you are misinterpreting the results, presumably because you think S0 Modern standby is a sleep state.
S0 Modern standby is initiated by the display turning off.
Your tasks are running because Power options, Sleep after - Never is preventing S0 Modern standby from progressing into its later phases.

Caledon Ken said:
In the BIOS there is a setting to defeat the OS from setting S3. This is off on mine so the OS can be set to S3.

You can either have access to S0 Modern standby or to S3 Sleep at any given time.
That Bios setting [if reliable] could allow you to switch between the two at boot.
The PowerCfg -a results will tell you which power model is in force.

Caledon Ken said:
I read if OS is changed a reload of the OS is required

No, even though MS say that a reinstallation is needed, it is not true.
But I suspect that all they meant was that the OS needs to be restarted so it loads up again. Just like your Bios appears to offer you.

Caledon Ken said:
Still in disbelief that MS knowingly broke task scheduler.

They have only broken it for the case that Power options, Sleep after is set and its time period has passed.
But your sentiments are spot on. MS have not told people that they need to set Power options, Sleep after to never if they need to use TS.

hsehestedt said:
Open Control Panel > Power Options > Change plan settings > Change advanced power settings > Sleep > Allow wake timers.

How is this set? If wake timers are allowed, it should allow the system to wake from S0.

S0 Modern standby is an idle condition not a sleep state.
An S0 Modern standby computer does not sleep.
It does not, therefore, wake from sleep.
It can wake from hibernation but that's all.
This might just be terminology but misunderstandings can occur if the wrong terms are used.
There is no defined term for rousing an S0 Modern standby computer from its S0 Modern standby [idle condition] to an S0 working condition.
You will find several places within Windows where S0 Modern standby is referred to as "Sleep" but it is important to realise that the term does not mean S3 Sleep or, indeed, any form of sleep that we have known for the past decades.
S0 Modern standby is an idle condition not a sleep state.

Caledon Ken said:
there are two group policies to allow system to use S1-S3 states

There is also a Registry method of disabling S0 Modern standby [and praying that S3 Sleep gets enabled by this act].
Disable Modern Standby in Windows 10 and Windows 11 - ElevenForumTutorials
But nothing can guarantee that disabling S0 Modern standby will indeed enable S3 Sleep on any given computer.
- You have to try it to find out.
- I had one computer where S3 Sleep appeared to be enabled when S0 Modern standby was disabled but the computer could then not run .exe files. I never managed to solve this problem; I was able to return it for a full refund so I only tried to investigate the problem for a day or so.

All the best,
Denis

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Caledon Ken said:
When this device is in Standby it will not wake up.

The term Standby has been in use for over two decades.
S0 Modern standby is not Standby in the sense that we have all used it.
S0 Modern standby is an idle condition not a sleep state.

If you set your Power options, Sleep after to Never then your tasks will run - as your tests have already demonstrated.
I have one S0 Modern standby computer for which only clicking its touchpad, pressing a keyboard key or waving its external mouse around can rouse it from S0 Modern standby [idle]. Stroking its touchpad without clicking cannot do it. That confused me when I was experimenting with it.

If you are going to continue experimenting then consider using my test batch file. It was in the link I first gave you but I've attached it here as well so you don't have to go hunting.
- The batch file includes multiple outputs [writing to a log file, toggling the CapsLock key, speaking]
- The batch file also makes the display come back on and it is that that brings the computer out of S0 Modern standby [idle condition].

I have tested everything that I am saying to you.
I have let a computer sit there in S0 Modern standby for 9 hours waiting for TS's time trigger to run my test batch file.

You could study these if you wanted to.
Device-specific power management for modern standby - MSDocs
Prepare software for modern standby - MSDocs
Prepare hardware for modern standby - MSDocs
Modern Standby wake sources - MSDocs
What is Modern Standby - MSDocs
Modern Standby - MSDocs
Modern Standby FAQs - MSDocs
Automatic Maintenance (Task Scheduler) - MSDocs
Activators - MSDocs
Email While You Sleep - How to Use Windows 10s Modern Standby - LaptopMag
Modern standby - Key concepts overview - MSDocs
Modern standby SleepStudy - MSDocs
Modern Standby states - MSDocs
Modern Standby vs S3 - MSDocs
Modern standby - Simple app and tile updates only - MSDocs
System Power States - MSDocs
Much of it only has meaning for specialists. I've even seen posts by developers complaining that MS do not provide them with the information necessary to allow them to write applications that work with S0 Modern standby; the information must exist because MS must have given it to their WU & email app developers.

All the best,
Denis

hsehestedt · Jul 29, 2023

Try3 said:
S0 is an idle condition not a sleep state.
An S0 computer does not sleep.
It does not, therefore, wake from sleep.

Yes, you are technically 100% correct. I lump it in with sleep states for sake of convenience and laziness so as not to need to explain the difference. I suppose that it would be more accurate to say that the system is changing power states.

On the Internet, you can find statements that sort of lump in the S0 power state with sleep states like this:

"Modern Standby is an instant sleep/wake power state. It is also known as S0 Low-power Idle mode. In this sleep state, parts of the system continue to run in the background. This allows it to perform system actions without exiting sleep but then wake instantly when real-time action is required."

Note how they use the term "wake instantly", although, technically, you are wight and it is merely changing power states because it is technically already awake.

What makes this lazy comparison to actual sleep states so easy is that they are often used together in the same discussion. Even Microsoft documentation and illustrations so them together, although the distinction is that they are considered different power states rather than all being sleep states. The below Microsoft illustration does in fact separate S0 from the other states but clearly shows a relationship between them.

Denis, the bottom line is that you are 100% correct. I'll do better in my description of this in the future

Try3 · Jul 29, 2023

Hannes,

And that MS diagram should also be rebuked for its implication that an S0 computer can slip across into S1, S2, S3, S4 or S5.
- It does not have S3.
- Some MS references describe Hibernation as S4 whilst others refer to it as S5 so I don't know which of those to object to.
- I cannot remember seeing S1, S2 this century let alone remember what they meant. I think S1, S2 were merely poor versions of S3.
I have S0 Modern standby on the brain this evening and I misinterpreted that diagram.
- The operating state of any working computer is "S0".
- The special low power state we've been discussing is "S0 Modern standby" aka "S0 Low power idle".
- An S0 Modern standby computer is always in one of these states: S0 [operating condition], S0 Modern standby [idle condition], Hibernation, Shutdown.

"Sleep" is the one word that I always try to respond to so that people do not think S0 Modern standby & S3 Sleep are in the same tribe.

I had been studying S0 Modern standby on & off ever since I bought a 'travel' computer [well, a tablet with its own integrated keyboard so it looks like a small laptop] in 2018 and found that it could not use TS to run tasks.
It was several years before I discovered that the Power options, Sleep after - Never setting would let me use TS as I had always done.
It wasn't until my big round of power consumption & TS/scripting experiments [post #2 above] that I began to regard S0 Modern standby as acceptable.
I have since bought a new computer {Lenovo Flex 5 16 [16" touchscreen]} and haven't even attempted to disable or avoid S0 Modern standby on it.

[By the way, I promised you & somebody else that I'd write up my long-running experiment into limiting battery charging to 80-90% on my Dell Inspiron 7779. I'm a bit snowed under so haven't got round to the writing but the results are perfectly clear - limiting battery charge has not altered the rate of decay of the battery Last full charge / Design charge ratio. The battery that was losing about 3% of its ratio a year continued to do so after a year at limited charging, the battery that was still at a 100% ratio is still at 100% ratio after a year at limited charging. I do not claim that my results apply to any other computers because I only experimented on my own one.]
[Sodding terminology again; I'm knackered so that's my excuse. I should not have referred to the batteries but to the batteries as managed by the computer's Battery management system.]

All the best,
Denis

Try3 · Jul 30, 2023

Caledon Ken said:
I'm realizing how different all these machines are with Standby. On a new Dell system, when the machine enters Standby all networking is disabled, by policy. ( Output of powercfg /a command ). ( Yes it can be enable, Shawn's tutorial.)

I set my screen to shut off after three minutes and set sleep to never. My backup was schedule to start at least 30 minutes after screen shutoff. The networked backups ran successful and should not have if S0 was in invoke. There shouldn't have been a network connection by policy. So at least on this Dell the screen being shutoff does not invoke Standby.

Of note, in this Dell in the Power section of the BIOS there is a switch to prevent the OS from using S3. Out of the box this is disabled so I assume following this tutorial will allow S3 to be enabled.

I also noticed in Group Policies there are two policies, one for battery and one for plugged in, that enable S1-S3. gpedit > Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > System > Power Management > Sleep.

I wonder how these policies differ from the tutorial commands / registry edits. Would the policies provide more functionality or do the commands / registry edits indirectly enable these policies?

From reading I saw a post that the Windows Clock app can stir a machine in S0 state. I wonder why the makers of backup software with their own schedulers can't copy. One individual was setting alarms in the clock to "awaken" machine and then used this opportunity to run scheduled tasks. Inventive solution, one I did not test.

Ken,

I thought it would be more useful to respond in this thread.

Caledon Ken said:
So at least on this Dell the screen being shutoff does not invoke Standby.

What does that Event viewer, Custom view say? Does it ever show that S0 Modern standby is being used? How do the timings match display off times that had been noted manually?
I have seen one computer in which PowerCfg -a reported that S3 Sleep was in force but that nevertheless could not use S3 Sleep. I wonder if the opposite might also be possible.

Caledon Ken said:
in the Power section of the BIOS there is a switch to prevent the OS from using S3. Out of the box this is disabled so I assume following this tutorial will allow S3 to be enabled.

The tutorial does not refer to the Bios.
If I had such a choice, I'd use the Bios setting to disable S0 rather than the Registry.

Caledon Ken said:
there are two policies, one for battery and one for plugged in, that enable S1-S3

That implies that S0 Modern standby & S3 Sleep could co-exist. I do not understand how that could be.
I'd be interested in seeing the results of such policy changes, which Registry Keys they change and the before & after PowerCfg -a results [which do not distinguish between AC power & battery power].

Caledon Ken said:
do the commands / registry edits indirectly enable these policies?

The Registry edit would not be shown in the policy.
A policy only shows as enabled if the policy has been used to effect the change.
If the change has been done behind the policy's back, the policy will continue to show as Not configured.

Caledon Ken said:
the Windows Clock app can stir a machine in S0 state. I wonder why the makers of backup software with their own schedulers can't copy.

Try3 said:
I've even seen posts by developers complaining that MS do not provide them with the information necessary to allow them to write applications that work with S0; the information must exist because MS must have given it to their WU & email app developers.

It's possible to rouse a computer from S0 Modern standby idle condition very easily. That batch file I posted does so by emulating a keyboard key press. It can be run manually & through Task scheduler.
I suppose that programmers would prefer to do the job properly. WU & the built-in email app might well operate without rousing the computer from S0 Modern standby idle condition.

All the best,
Denis

Caledon Ken · Jul 30, 2023

Thanks Denis. You spent a lot of time and shared a lot of information.

This is all quite ridiculous. If Modern Standby has been around in some form since Windows 8, then products like AV and backups should be able to stir the beast into action. (Reverse engineer the code).

Running batch scripts, using clock apps or setting machine to never use it lowest idle state ( what I guess MS calls Sleep ) is wrong. My device, as set now, has the checkmark box greyed out to "Allow schedule maintenance to wake up my computer at schedule time" for Windows maintenance and even if I could enable, the Network is disable. (Makes me think of that video in that other thread that said users will never be interrupted by updates again. BS) The user on stirring their device will now have update found, scans started and backup initiated along with whatever other maintenance Windows did at 2:00 am

Would the average user even know where to start with the bag of .....

I'm leaning towards just enabling S3 using Shawn's registry edit. Instant on would be nice but if it means basic functionality is defeated it is of little use.

The industry should be embarrassed. They should set up a working group, share information and set standards.

Try3 · Jul 30, 2023

Ken,

I went through several phases in my approach to dealing with S0 Modern standby.
1 I left it enabled but set my Display off after time to Never so S0 Modern standby never started. I also set up a blank screensaver to come on after NN minutes so the display wasn't glaring at me all day. This worked alright.
2 I disabled S0 Modern standby. In my case, disabling it did not enable S3 Sleep so I was left with: On, Hibernate, Off. This worked alright but I was not able to use TS to wake from Hibernation.
3 I bought a new computer that was supposed to have S3 Sleep but did not, it had S0 Modern standby instead. When I disabled S0 Modern standby, it did not operate correctly at all [it could not run many executable files such Disk mgmt]. I restored the pre-OOBE system image I had made and got a return label from HP.
- Before returning it for a refund, I conducted the power consumption tests I told you about in post #2 and was as surprised as I was pleased by just how little power was consumed during S0 Modern standby. It was using as little power as a comparable computer had used during S3 Sleep.
- On a whim, I then started conducting the TS task tests I also linked you to in post #2. I ran tasks successfully once I'd set Power options, Sleep after to Never. I had only experimented with that because it was still set that way after my power consumption tests. I was astounded. Not only could tasks run despite S0 Modern standby on the about-to-be returned-decent-computer, but repeating them on my tablet-with-integrated-keyboard could run them too. I had had that computer for almost five years and had not been able to run TS tasks on it before.
4 I bought another laptop [the Lenovo in my signature] a couple of months later. It has S0 Modern standby. I have set Power options - Sleep after to Never. I am able to use TS tasks as much as I want, including the one that had been my wish all those years earlier, setting WMP to wake me up with Louis Armstrong's On the sunny side of the street. I bought the Lenovo a bit early - it is intended to replace my 2016 main laptop [S3 Sleep computer] sometime and is my handy Windows 11 test computer in the meantime. My main laptop plays Louis Armstrong louder but I can't have everything I suppose.

Caledon Ken said:
setting machine to never use it lowest idle state ( what I guess MS calls Sleep ) is wrong

You are correct, MS does call one of the later phases of S0 Modern standby Sleep and setting Power options - Sleep after to Never does indeed stop it reaching that phase.
It also calls it Sleep, in effect, in Start button, Power, Sleep which sends the computer straight into a later phase of S0 Modern standby as well as in Power options, Sleep after.
But stopping it reaching that later phase had not made any measurable difference to the power consumption in S0 Modern standby in my experiments.

Caledon Ken said:
Would the average user even know where to start with the bag of .....

I also think not.
Despite having read each paper in that long list of reference documents I posted earlier, there seems to be nothing to guide the user properly [whether average or not]. I only solved the TS task problem because I'd left the computer with Sleep after - Never after my power consumption tests.

Caledon Ken said:
I'm leaning towards just enabling S3 using Shawn's registry edit.

That Registry edit disables S0 Modern standby.
Some users, but not all, have found that disabling S0 Modern standby enables S3 Sleep.
You'll only find out if it works on your computer by trying it.
But do consider the fact that setting Sleep after - Never removes the curse without disabling S0 Modern standby - everything you would want from an S3 Sleep computer is yours with a S0 Modern standby one.

Caledon Ken said:
Instant on would be nice

That's another MS claim that does not hold water.
It is not instant. It takes a finite time just as waking from S3 Sleep does.
And MS also claim that they provide S0 Modern standby because users want instant on. Cobblers. Waking from S3 Sleep takes so little time that the computer is ready before I am.

@glasskuter - Isn't my tone difference from what it used to be before my power consumption & TS task tests in April! I've been able to write about S0 Modern standby without any effing & blinding and I even managed to use the word curse just once.

All the best,
Denis

Try3 · Jul 30, 2023

Caledon Ken said:
I appear to lucky in that Dell does not enforce S0 in the BIOS

You are fortunate indeed [if that Bios switch you mentioned does do what you think it does].
Dell S0 Modern standby White paper

Dell S0 Modern standby White paper said:
Dell does not allow for users to modify any Modern Standby configurations within the BIOS setup. This includes disabling Modern Standby to utilize legacy S3 operations.

All the best,
Denis