[Rant] File explorer tabs UI interaction

hsehestedt · Nov 10, 2022

fruh said:
Of course sharing and comparing opinions is only a good thing. I do actually agree with you, otherwise everything would be a mess, also given that in this case we are using a cursor on the screen rather than, let's say, our fingers.

In this case though the matter is that there is nothing beyond the explorer tabs or the start button, they're right at the edge of the screen, so discerning something from the actual nothingness is kinda useless to me. If an element is not at the edge of the screen (the very same explorer tabs when the window is not maximised for example), I completely agree with you

I opened this thread assuming we were talking about the tabs in a maximised window, so the resize handle wouldn't be available anyway. Also, that blank gap above the explorer's tabs doesn't allow to drag down the window when maximised and stuff like that, even worse

@MisterEd I will happily decline your destructive criticism, but thanks for your suggestion anyway

I understand what you are saying, but I think that I understand what they were going for. This is a little awkward to explain, but try this:

1) Open a File Explorer window (or Edge can be used as well for this example). Set to a specific size and remember roughly the size that you made that window.

2) Click the button at the upper right to maximize the window.

3) As you noted, there is no resize handle when maximized, but note this...

4) Click and continue to hold the mouse button down on an area to the right of the tabs. Drag downward. Note that immediately the windows is transitioned from full screen to the exact same size that it was before you maximized it.

So, I guess that the designers had two options available:

1) They could have made it so that when full screen you could freely resize the window.

2) They could make it so that you could easily revert back to exactly the size it was before maximizing, and once that is done you could freely resize it by then grabbing an edge or corner.

Apparently they elected option 2, but they could just as well have gone the other way.

kelper · Nov 10, 2022

hsehestedt said:
Oh course it doesn't - it's maximized so there is no need for a handle to size the Window. You can only resize a window that is NOT maximized.

OK. My mistake.
I see that it is not your 'frame' that is used to resize a non-maximised window, it is the very outside edge as you can see on the left, right or bottom edges.

fruh · Nov 10, 2022

@hsehestedt well I sure hope they won't ever go with option one; also, you can drag the resize handle to the top of the screen to make the height of the window automagically fit the height of the screen, so there wouldn't be any need for option one.

Anyway, I do get what you're trying to say but I don't get why it matters, I'm not interested in resizing a window when it's full screen, the problem is that having to avoid the last two pixels of the screen to select a tab is just nonsense (and MS themselves know that since they designed the start button specifically to avoid that issue)

hsehestedt · Nov 10, 2022

The bottom line to all this seems to be that there is a wide range of opinions on how various GUI elements "should" work. I guess that there is simply no way to please everyone. If you implement option #1, some users will complain that option #2 is better. If you implement option #2, then others will complain that option #1 is better.

I guess that we simply have to make due with the hand that we are dealt

fruh · Nov 10, 2022

hsehestedt said:
I guess that we simply have to make due with the hand that we are dealt

Well yes and no. I would gladly go to another OS just like I use Firefox instead of any Chrome subspecies available, if only it was actually viable. To me, being able to make due with what I have is not a good reason to give up with improving

dbartenstein · Nov 10, 2022

hsehestedt said:
I understand what you are saying, but I think that I understand what they were going for. This is a little awkward to explain, but try this:

1) Open a File Explorer window (or Edge can be used as well for this example). Set to a specific size and remember roughly the size that you made that window.

2) Click the button at the upper right to maximize the window.

3) As you noted, there is no resize handle when maximized, but note this...

4) Click and continue to hold the mouse button down on an area to the right of the tabs. Drag downward. Note that immediately the windows is transitioned from full screen to the exact same size that it was before you maximized it.

So, I guess that the designers had two options available:

1) They could have made it so that when full screen you could freely resize the window.

2) They could make it so that you could easily revert back to exactly the size it was before maximizing, and once that is done you could freely resize it by then grabbing an edge or corner.

Apparently they elected option 2, but they could just as well have gone the other way.

My work PC is on Win 10 and I can verify that the behavior is exactly the same there.

hsehestedt · Nov 10, 2022

fruh said:
Well yes and no. I would gladly go to another OS just like I use Firefox instead of any Chrome subspecies available, if only it was actually viable. To me, being able to make due with what I have is not a good reason to give up with improving

Point taken. To be more clear, what I should have said was that us Windows users have to make due with what we are given. Naturally, you can always use another OS, or you can seek add-ons that modify the default behavior of Windows.

I'm just saying that us poor souls who won't run another OS either by choice, or who might be forced into a corporate standard, etc. just have deal with it.

fruh · Nov 10, 2022

hsehestedt said:
Point taken. To be more clear, what I should have said was that us Windows users have to make due with what we are given. Naturally, you can always use another OS, or you can seek add-ons that modify the default behavior of Windows.

I'm just saying that us poor souls who won't run another OS either by choice, or who might be forced into a corporate standard, etc. just have deal with it.

I do get your point of view, and I think the "poor souls" terminology fits perfectly

Winuser · Nov 10, 2022

kelper said:
I see what OP means. There is a narrow gap above all the tabs. So if you move the cursor to the top and then left or right, none of the tabs is clickable. It's poor design.

It's a very very small gap. With all of the area one does have to click on, unless they are having trouble to clicking with their finger on a touch screen, I don't see the problem.

WAI · Nov 10, 2022

I'm not having any issues. I don't see why people are having issues other than it's a oem (pre-built) with crap software changing things

Winuser · Nov 10, 2022

fruh said:
As you can clearly see, the start button is "selected" even though the cursor is not actually on the graphical button interface

On my computer, if I move the cursor out of the highlighted start menu box, it won't open. I have to click inside of the highlighted area.

kelper · Nov 10, 2022

Winuser said:
On my computer, if I move the cursor out of the highlighted start menu box, it won't open. I have to click inside of the highlighted area.

Do you have your taskbar centred? If so, please move it to the left and try again.

Winuser · Nov 10, 2022

hsehestedt said:
To my mind, the whole point of the highlighted area is to show "this is the area within which a click will be registered" not, "this is roughly where to click but we don't care if you fudge it". That seems completely stupid to me . Again, my opinion only. Otherwise, what it the point of the highlight in the first place when you can just ballpark it?

I'm thinking the same thing. I can see how this may be a problem when using your finger on a touch screen. Especially if it's a small screen. I have short fat fingers and I'm always having trouble using the touch screen on my phone.

fruh · Nov 10, 2022

Winuser said:
It's a very very small gap. With all of the area one does have to click on, unless they are having trouble to clicking with their finger on a touch screen, I don't see the problem.

It can be even just one pixel wide but, since that gap has no actual function, not allowing the cursor to be blindly thrown against the screen edge for a faster and more practical interaction (just like what already happens with the start menu button) is just a bad, incoherent design choice

This is SPECIFICALLY NOT a fingertip interaction issue, because you can't reach such high precision with fingers, and I think the fraction of users that use a mouse is quite conspicuous. With the mouse cursor it's easier to click on a one pixel wide gap, not the other way around.

The point, as I already explained, is that in this specific case the interaction is at the EDGE of the screen, the edge being defined as the line beyond which there is nothing else to interact with

Winuser · Nov 10, 2022

kelper said:
Do you have your taskbar centred? If so, please move it to the left and try again.

Yes and I did. I even disabled StartAllBack and i still have to click in the highlighted area of the start menu. When using a mouse, I don't see why it's a problem clicking inside of the highlighted area. When using a finger on a touch screen I can see it being a problem. I'm always messing up on my cell phone. All I can say is, to each their own.

Winuser · Nov 10, 2022

fruh said:
It can be even just one pixel wide but, since that gap has no actual function, not allowing the cursor to be blindly thrown against the screen edge for a faster and more practical interaction (just like what already happens with the start menu button) is just a bad, incoherent design choice

This is SPECIFICALLY NOT a fingertip interaction issue, because you can't reach such high precision with fingers, and I think the fraction of users that use a mouse is quite conspicuous. With the mouse cursor it's easier to click on a one pixel wide gap, not the other way around.

The point, as I already explained, is that in this specific case the interaction is at the EDGE of the screen, the edge being defined as the line beyond which there is nothing else to interact with

Can I ask a question? if not, just tell me to put the tape back over my mouth. As big as the clickable area is, Why do you want to click outside of it?

fruh · Nov 10, 2022

Winuser said:
Can I ask a question? if not, just tell me to put the tape back over my mouth. As big as the clickable area is, Why do you want to click outside of it?

Of course you can :3
Well, I do not explicitly want to do it, it just so happens that I move my cursor one pixel too far and if I click nothing happens, for no reason other than a clearly bad design choice. It's just easier to throw the mouse cursor all the way to the edge of the screen rather than aiming at the precise tab, by accident or not

Touch interactions are completely different from cursor interactions. Messing up on a smartphone is likely because your fingertip slips on the screen, touch interfaces are specifically designed so that you don't need a sharp point to use them (but apparently MS has suddenly forgotten that); or at least they should be designed that way

fruh · Feb 19, 2024

Today I was using a W11 22631.3155 machine and noticed that I wasn't missing the file explorer tabs all the time, then I realized that on that machine there is no two-pixel-wide dead space between the tabs and the screen's top edge, unlike on my 22621.3155 laptop

Is that a new feature on the 22631 version? I haven't found any changelog about it yet, but I love it :3

EDIT - I have now found out how to enable 23H2 and I can confirm nothing has changed on my laptop. I still have the deadzone above the tabs. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the other machine is a regular desktop PC while mine is a laptop? :/

fruh · Feb 19, 2024

Nevermind, I've found the "solution". My laptop is usually set at the recommended 125% scaling while the desktop PC is set at 100% scaling (quite a bigger monitor)

Indeed, if I set my laptop's screen scaling at 100% the deadzone is gone. Clearly there's something wrong with the tabs design, be it on purpose or not

Posting another reply because one edit seemed enough

Winuser · Feb 19, 2024

fruh said:
Indeed, if I set my laptop's screen scaling at 100% the deadzone is gone. Clearly there's something wrong with the tabs design, be it on purpose or not

You can use the Feedback hub to report it.

[Rant] File explorer tabs UI interaction

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