time to replace components in wife's computer for dreaded Win10 to Win11

pseymour · May 8, 2025

Winuser said:
I'm not understanding how the name of an OS would effect the coding of the OS. Isn't a name just a name?

There are two ways version checks are typically done. One is to get the actual version number, via the appropriate API function. That’s the correct way.

Then there are folks who retrieve the product name and parse that string. That’s wrong. I’m not sure it’s very common anymore, since the consumer and business lines of Windows have merged. But it was super common in the Windows 9x days, which is the problem with having a 9 in the version number in the modern era.

This is a total guess, but I think maybe ME or the move of everyone to the NT family of Windows may have ended this practice. Once they put letters only in the product name, all of a sudden you can’t check for a number being greater or less than. Just a supposition on my part.

Winuser · May 8, 2025

pseymour said:
There are two ways version checks are typically done. One is to get the actual version number, via the appropriate API function. That’s the correct way.

I'm sorry but I still don't see how just the name of the OS has anything to do with the workings of the OS.

Scannerman · May 8, 2025

Winuser said:
I'm sorry but I still don't see how just the name of the OS has anything to do with the workings of the OS.

I'm of a similar persuasion; but I'm also of the persuasion that a single character can change everything in code and I'm no coder. I'm still scratching my head on why Microsoft would even care when most PCs weren't even Windows 11 ready when they released it. I'm pretty sure most of them still aren't. Sorry, but I just can't see MS being that benevolent with respect to older unsupported operating systems. I suppose it really doesn't matter what I think or what anyone else thinks about this. For me, Win 11 is a totally different operating system than Win 10. That's what I think. So now I'm facing the same but different conundrum and I'm wondering what actually accounts for a totally different OS. I'm at a loss to explain it.

Years ago, I remember reading how that Win 8.1 used completely different architecture than Win 8 and was essentially a different operating system. I bought that line. It made sense to me because I know that shells can be made to resemble other operating systems easily whereas what is going on behind the shell is an entirely different matter. It would seem that I have been misinformed and now I must eat my humble pie. What spapakons stated about Windows 8.1 being Windows 9 makes perfect sense to me. But hey, I'm only a hardware guy. Howbeit I am compelled to ask: What defines a completely different operating system?

spapakons · May 8, 2025

Completely different is XP which is based on NT family to Windows 9x that used a legacy non-NT kernel. Also Vista is different to XP in that it uses WDDM graphics drivers, but it can also use old Windows XP (aka XPDM) graphics drivers for backwards compatibility. Different is Windows 8 and higher to Windows 7 that runs modern apps (aka UWP, aka Metro apps), but can also run "traditional" desktop apps for backwards compatibility. Having these in mind, Windows 8.1 wasn't completely different from 8.0, it just loaded the desktop by default, instead of showing the Metro screen and had a different start menu. All Windows 8 drivers are also Windows 8.1 drivers. Similarly Windows 11 is not much different than 10 64-bit, it just has a different skin and some new features. There are customisation tools to make 11 look exactly like 10 or even 7. Thankfully Microsoft maintains backwards compatibility as much as possible, unlike Apple, so we can even play Windows XP and some Windows 98 games in 11. Same for applications. Also some XP drivers can be used in Vista 32-bit or higher. Some even work in Windows 10 32-bit. Similarly for Vista 32-bit or higher drivers. Also a few Windows XP x64 drivers (assuming you can find one) work in Vista 64-bit and higher up to Windows 11. Needless to say the newer the Windows version the better, but for really old computers running Windows 11 23H2 you can install Vista 64-bit drivers if no higher is available. Before you rush to correct me, yes I have done it. I speak of personal experience, so don't judge unless you try it yourself first. Πάταξον μεν, άκουσον δε (punish me but also listen to me), as ancient Greek said.

pseymour · May 8, 2025

Winuser said:
I'm sorry but I still don't see how just the name of the OS has anything to do with the workings of the OS.

It’s not the OS that is affected, it’s the apps. The OS is compensating for bad app coding.

gunrunnerjohn · May 8, 2025

pseymour said:
It’s not the OS that is affected, it’s the apps. The OS is compensating for bad app coding.

Well, there's plenty of bad coding in Windows as well!

spapakons · May 9, 2025

pseymour said:
It’s not the OS that is affected, it’s the apps. The OS is compensating for bad app coding.

I think they shouldn't compensate. Let bad coded programs fail and so the developer will be forced to fix them, assuming they are still supported.

gunrunnerjohn · May 9, 2025

spapakons said:
I think they shouldn't compensate. Let bad coded programs fail and so the developer will be forced to fix them, assuming they are still supported.

Well, there's a problem with that approach, especially from Microsoft's viewpoint. If they don't accommodate older applications, they'd have a ton more people dragging their feet for the upgrades that MS is pushing for they're own reasons. The reality is backward compatibility it a major consideration when someone upgrades to a new version.

retiredat44 · May 11, 2025

spapakons said:
In order to get all possible games and wallpapers and screensavers, I installed Windows 95 on my Intel Pentium PC, then installed Plus! for Windows 95, upgraded to Windows 98 First Edition (aka Windows 98 Gold) and installed Plus! for Windows 98. It took me the whole day, but it was worth it, as I had everything. I later upgraded that to Windows ME (just in case I miss any features) before upgrading to Windows XP. I then installed SP1, SP2, SP3 and then dotNET 1.1, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0 Some years later I installed Windows XP on my Intel Pentium 4 computer, then I upgraded to Vista and then to 7 32-bit. When I migrated to a Pentium D system I needed support for more than 4GB RAM, so I did a clean installation to Windows 7 64-bit (I didn't know the utility patchpae3 back then that enables a 32-bit system to see up to 128GB RAM). Windows 7 64-bit was migrated to my previously 3rd generation Intel Core-i3 (now 3rd generation Core-i7), upgraded to Windows 8, then 8.1, then 10. However due to some incompatibility I could not upgrade to Windows 11 21H2, so eventually I gave up my efforts and did a clean installation of Windows 11 21H2. I then upgraded it to 22H2, 23H2 and eventually to 24H2. Yes, I prefer to UPGRADE to a newer version than installing from scratch with all the pros and cons of doing so (I believe the benefits are more including doing it in half a day vs spending almost a week for a clean installation).

people that used scsi mostly kept windows xp forever.. although you could run scsi on windows, if the motherboard allowed it... I still have a very expensive HP photo, slide, negative scanner with is scsi. I had it running ago not long ago on an old computer. but face the fact that the battle to keep running is lost. Even with the hardware, later windows OS will not allow it.. and converting the scsi to even usb is more expensive than buying new scanners. Ending up with tons of old computers... and boxes of all the rest... I tried running linux with the scsi, but could not get it figured out.. after 45 years of computer building and fixing... I am no longer getting into the code. Had enough.... I will build PC's, but no longer trying to get old stuff working again... cheaper just to get new stuff when needed nowdays. Computers were much more expensive in yesterdays dollars, than today. And old software is either updated, or it isn't. so many programs were purposely left not working in windows 11 (even windows 10), so you have to buy it again. Abandonware, is plentiful, but no longer can just load and make it work again. Use to do it often. I have old favorites that have been sold to software outlets and they locked it down so you have to buy a newer version (can no longer make it work on new OS). No more days of stringing 50 foot of network cable with RJ-45 connectors, now just connect with wifi or bluetooth. Product support cost more than just sending new replacement parts under warranty and not worth paying techs to fix it even if returned. AI answers all inquirees for support. It's new world and my old body will cash out soon. Younger people can ride this wave to the next one comes.

PhilB · May 11, 2025

spapakons said:
I think they shouldn't compensate. Let bad coded programs fail and so the developer will be forced to fix them, assuming they are still supported.

It is more than just bad coded programs. It's also commercial programs that the vendor chooses to stop developing for, whatever the reason. Adobe Frame anyone? Micromedia Flash? Microsoft MultiPlan? And let's not forget all the one-man band companies where that one-man is no longer active. Or shareware that is no longer being supported. A zillion different DOS-based programs.

Some of this can certainly be attributed to changes in the overall ecosystem and standards. With HTML 5, you don't need Flash any longer . That's just one example.

pseymour · May 11, 2025

I stumbled across an example of this "Windows 9" check. I chose JavaScript formatting, because that's close enough, but this is actually from some Java code. You can see they're starting with a check to see if the OS name starts with "Windows 9," and then proceeding on to check if it's 95, 98, or ME. Obviously, an actual product called Windows 9 would cause a problem here.

JavaScript:

            if (name.startsWith("windows 9")) {
                if (version.startsWith("4.0")) {
                    version = "95";
                } else if (version.startsWith("4.9")) {
                    version = "me";
                } else {
                    assert version.startsWith("4.1");
                    version = "98";
                }
            }

Full sauce available here: https://issues.jenkins.io/secure/attachment/18777/PlatformDetailsTask.java

gunrunnerjohn · May 11, 2025

pseymour said:
Full sauce available here: https://issues.jenkins.io/secure/attachment/18777/PlatformDetailsTask.java

What flavor is that sauce, tomato?

Winuser · May 11, 2025

pseymour said:
I stumbled across an example of this "Windows 9" check. I chose JavaScript formatting, because that's close enough, but this is actually from some Java code. You can see they're starting with a check to see if the OS name starts with "Windows 9," and then proceeding on to check if it's 95, 98, or ME. Obviously, an actual product called Windows 9 would cause a problem here.

JavaScript:

if (name.startsWith("windows 9")) { if (version.startsWith("4.0")) { version = "95"; } else if (version.startsWith("4.9")) { version = "me"; } else { assert version.startsWith("4.1"); version = "98"; } }

Full sauce available here: https://issues.jenkins.io/secure/attachment/18777/PlatformDetailsTask.java

Just trying to better understand. Why was the line (if ( name.startsWith("windows 9")) { ) added? What does it do if ran on newer versions of Windows?

gunrunnerjohn · May 11, 2025

Winuser said:
Just trying to better understand. Why was the line (if ( name.startsWith("windows 9")) { ) added? What does it do if ran on newer versions of Windows?

Well, that snippit of code obviously is intended to set the variable version to the exact version of Windows, if the first test fails, the version would not be filled in. One would presume that additional code would be below that to do further sampling to set the version.

If you look at the compete code body posted in the link, it should be clearer.

Winuser · May 11, 2025

gunrunnerjohn said:
Well, that snippit of code obviously is intended to set the variable version to the exact version of Windows, if the first test fails, the version would not be filled in. One would presume that additional code would be below that to do further sampling to set the version.

If you look at the compete code body posted in the link, it should be clearer.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of why MS couldn't have used the name Windows 9. I'm still not seeing it. To me , Windows 9 is just a name.

Edit: I'm still not sure that the reason MS went with Windows 10 instead of Windows 9 was because the wanted to show that the new OS was going in a different direction than Windows 8 and 8.1. If they had gone with the name Windows 9 , I wonder how many users would think that nothing changed and that MS only added 8 + 1 to come up with a new name. Windows 8 and 8.1 weren't very well liked by many users.

gunrunnerjohn · May 11, 2025

Winuser said:
I'm trying to get a better understanding of why MS couldn't have used the name Windows 9. I'm still not seeing it. To me , Windows 9 is just a name.

OK, that question eludes me as well, but having sat in meetings where strange decisions were made, I can see them all sitting around in a table and deciding that the plain 9 was not suitable.

It may have been as simple as what version that Apple's IOS was at the time. I note that Windows 10 was released in 2015, and Apple IOS 10 was released the next year. Maybe Microsoft was just trying to get "version 10" out before Apple.

pseymour · May 11, 2025

Winuser said:
Just trying to better understand. Why was the line (if ( name.startsWith("windows 9")) { ) added? What does it do if ran on newer versions of Windows?

To know why that line was added, you'd have to ask the developer who coded this badly. The point is, code like this is and was out there. So, if there were a real product named "Windows 9," and this code ran on that version of Windows, it would fail to detect the version of Windows correctly. What it does after that depends on how gracefully they handle failure.

Bad code like this is all over the place. There are shims in Windows specifically for apps that do not behave correctly. I would imagine Microsoft saw way too many examples like this, and they were like, "screw it, we can't shim them all."

gunrunnerjohn · May 11, 2025

pseymour said:
Bad code like this is all over the place. There are shims in Windows specifically for apps that do not behave correctly. I would imagine Microsoft saw way too many examples like this, and they were like, "screw it, we can't shim them all."

Remember the Y2K fiasco?

spapakons · May 11, 2025

retiredat44 said:
people that used scsi mostly kept windows xp forever.. although you could run scsi on windows, if the motherboard allowed it... I still have a very expensive HP photo, slide, negative scanner with is scsi. I had it running ago not long ago on an old computer. but face the fact that the battle to keep running is lost. Even with the hardware, later windows OS will not allow it.. and converting the scsi to even usb is more expensive than buying new scanners. Ending up with tons of old computers... and boxes of all the rest... I tried running linux with the scsi, but could not get it figured out.. after 45 years of computer building and fixing... I am no longer getting into the code. Had enough.... I will build PC's, but no longer trying to get old stuff working again... cheaper just to get new stuff when needed nowdays. Computers were much more expensive in yesterdays dollars, than today. And old software is either updated, or it isn't. so many programs were purposely left not working in windows 11 (even windows 10), so you have to buy it again. Abandonware, is plentiful, but no longer can just load and make it work again. Use to do it often. I have old favorites that have been sold to software outlets and they locked it down so you have to buy a newer version (can no longer make it work on new OS). No more days of stringing 50 foot of network cable with RJ-45 connectors, now just connect with wifi or bluetooth. Product support cost more than just sending new replacement parts under warranty and not worth paying techs to fix it even if returned. AI answers all inquirees for support. It's new world and my old body will cash out soon. Younger people can ride this wave to the next one comes.

Back in the 90's I was downloading stuff and used WinZIP to split large files (such as MP3s) in two or more floppy disks. This was not convenient plus I had tens of floppies and it was nightmare trying to find a specific file. So I bought a parallel port Iomega ZIP-100 drive. I could use it in DOS, Windows 95/98 and XP. There were no Vista or higher drivers but I had kept a copy of the XP driver files and I could manually install them from Device Manager in Vista 32-bit and Windows 7 32-bit. Similarly for Vista and Windows 7 64-bit I could force the Windows XP x64 drivers. So I did the mistake and never bought a USB version of the drive while it was still available. Later in Windows 8 they did some change to the parallel port driver and could no longer detect the drive, so I couldn't force the drivers to make it work natively. The workaround is to install Windows XP on a virtual machine with parallel port support, such as VMware, and pass control of my parallel port to the guest OS. To run my old DOS games I use DosBox, to run old 16-bit Windows games I run Windows 3.1 inside DosBox or use an NTVM replacement such as WineVDM. To run Windows 95 or higher games I run Windows 98 or higher in a virtual machine. I cannot say for sure, but to make your old SCSI adapter work in Windows 10/11 I would try forcing the Windows XP x64 drivers (if any) or the Windows Vista 64-bit drivers (if available). I guess the Vista 64-bit drivers should have a higher chance to work. Regarding the scanner, if you cannot find Windows XP x64 drivers or higher, you could try VueScan or similar utilities that bypass the OEM drivers and make some scanners (not all models) work.

Winuser · May 11, 2025

gunrunnerjohn said:
Remember the Y2K fiasco?

I remember! The whole computer world was going to collapse.

time to replace components in wife's computer for dreaded Win10 to Win11

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