Solved Virtual machines in general

Tasmania Green · Saturday at 3:21 AM

pseymour said:
The standard user part is because, by default, standard user accounts cannot manage Hyper-V. You have to fiddle with permissions. If you run with an admin account, you don’t have to do anything extra.

I'll go with the full version.

hdmi · Saturday at 4:40 AM

Tasmania Green said:
Given that I am learning about Microsoft Azure, which virtual machine do you recommend I install?

While it certainly is true that Hyper-V plays together well (or usually...) with Azure and the Windows ecosystem (or the Windows ecosystem with or without Azure)—some ways similar to how Parallels Desktop can offer a whole list of key advantages if you're going to be running on macOS—you might also want to look into the free version of VMware vSphere Hypervisor, also known as ESXi. Just like Hyper-V, it is a Type 1 hypervisor.

Both Hyper-V and ESXi have their own weaknesses and strengths. To give only one example of that, when compared to Hyper-V, ESXi has been in the nested virtualization game longer and offers broader compatibility with guest hypervisors. You can run ESXi inside ESXi, or even Hyper-V inside ESXi, with relatively smooth performance.

VMware ESXi 8.0U3e Now Has a Free Version How to Get It

Broadcom brought back a VMware ESXi 8 free version now that you can download VMware ESXi 8.0U3 without subscribing

www.servethehome.com

That said, I wouldn't rule out the Type 2 hypervisors category per se. They too can offer a lot of advantages (and that makes them unique). The sacrifice in performance commonly associated with using a Type 2 hypervisor (and also commonly associated with using nested virtualization on a Type 1 hypervisor) isn't necessarily always going to be among primary concerns. There can be several other important factors that you might or might not want to prioritize more heavily than performance. Modern hardware is often capable enough that slowdowns may be not noticeable (or barely), even though this still greatly depends on a lot of things.

jimbo45 · Saturday at 5:59 AM

Another excellent reason for using VM's is that you can often run old hard/software on them where the facilities you want still work ok and often trying to go through all sorts of hoops and whistles to get this stuff to run on current OS's is far too much of a hassle -- XP for example runs needing so little resources so why even bother to attempt to make an XP program you might still use "compatible" with W11 if it's even possible !!!!!

I have some older (license free") studo hard/software where I can create "bespoke" music on Vinyls plus labels for the discs too -- only works on XP - but still brilliant -- the hard thing was getting blanks for the Vinyls - but no probs these days !!!. Newer hardware would cost (plus with the new wretched subscription model for music access and the software licenses etc) would work out in the 1st year alone at over $US 30,000.00 -- Thirty GRAND !!!-- far too much for the small volume I do. !!! even with generous business tax write off's for capital allowances and ongoing costs.

Cheers
jimbo

Tasmania Green · Saturday at 6:10 AM

Thanks hdmi and Jimbo. Good information. Looks like I have more research to do.

jimbo45 · Saturday at 6:29 AM

Tasmania Green said:
Thanks hdmi and Jimbo. Good information. Looks like I have more research to do.

people like @hdmi can (and do) give excellent technical info -- my use of VM's is much more at a practical - less theoretical level -- that's what I like about these forums -- people with broad spectrums of experience and interests etc contribute -- but as always - due diligence is the watchword as a load just google something and think the ist answer that comes up is "Gospel Truth" !!!

Cheers
jimbo

MisterEd · Saturday at 6:10 PM

hdmi said:
While it certainly is true that Hyper-V plays together well (or usually...) with Azure and the Windows ecosystem (or the Windows ecosystem with or without Azure)—some ways similar to how Parallels Desktop can offer a whole list of key advantages if you're going to be running on macOS—you might also want to look into the free version of VMware vSphere Hypervisor, also known as ESXi. Just like Hyper-V, it is a Type 1 hypervisor.

Both Hyper-V and ESXi have their own weaknesses and strengths. To give only one example of that, when compared to Hyper-V, ESXi has been in the nested virtualization game longer and offers broader compatibility with guest hypervisors. You can run ESXi inside ESXi, or even Hyper-V inside ESXi, with relatively smooth performance.

VMware ESXi 8.0U3e Now Has a Free Version How to Get It

Broadcom brought back a VMware ESXi 8 free version now that you can download VMware ESXi 8.0U3 without subscribing

www.servethehome.com

That said, I wouldn't rule out the Type 2 hypervisors category per se. They too can offer a lot of advantages (and that makes them unique). The sacrifice in performance commonly associated with using a Type 2 hypervisor (and also commonly associated with using nested virtualization on a Type 1 hypervisor) isn't necessarily always going to be among primary concerns. There can be several other important factors that you might or might not want to prioritize more heavily than performance. Modern hardware is often capable enough that slowdowns may be not noticeable (or barely), even though this still greatly depends on a lot of things.

Isn't that an overkill for most people?

VMware vSphere Hypervisor (ESXi ISO) image: VMware-VMvisor-Installer-8.0U3e-24677879.x86_64.iso

Additional Information
Boot your server with this image in order to install ESXi (ESXi requires 64-bit capable servers). This ESXi image includes VMware Tools.

hdmi · Sunday at 12:19 AM

MisterEd said:
Isn't that an overkill for most people?

Of course. But then, so is Hyper-V. Most people (myself included) have absolutely no need for Windows 11 Pro in any way whatsoever. What you see in my specs is just my hobby setup. One of the reasons why I use Sandboxie-Plus is because it lets me avoid having to simultaneously run more than one OS. My work setup doesn't use anything Windows related.

MisterEd said:
VMware vSphere Hypervisor (ESXi ISO) image: VMware-VMvisor-Installer-8.0U3e-24677879.x86_64.iso

Additional Information
Boot your server with this image in order to install ESXi (ESXi requires 64-bit capable servers). This ESXi image includes VMware Tools.

Just about any modern PC with a compatible NIC (which almost all modern Intel NICs are) can suffice. A half decent 64-bit consumer CPU from Intel or AMD supports Intel VT-x or AMD-V, and having 16GB RAM installed in a PC has become mainstream.

You can use GRUB to chainload the ESXi bootloader so, you can set it up to allow dual-booting Windows 11 and ESXi (each installed on a separate partition or disk). You can't use native boot to boot ESXi from a VHD(x), but I don't see why you'd want that. If you're using a virtualized ESXi environment, you can use VMware Workstation or VMware Player to run ESXi as a virtual machine. With ESXi, nested virtualization also lets you run Hyper-V inside ESXi like I earlier said.

With the free version of ESXi, you don't get support from Broadcom, and the free version of ESXi was gone for some time so, many of the free version's users have moved to other hypervisors as a result. However, VMware remains the leading industry standard, which makes the free version of ESXi a viable choice to want to consider for personal use, like, setting up a home lab, for personal learning, and for hobby experiments, for example. Like I also earlier said, so is Hyper-V, especially if you're on Windows, but I will repeat that the same also holds true about many other choices.

jimbo45 · Monday at 5:06 AM

hdmi said:
Of course. But then, so is Hyper-V. Most people (myself included) have absolutely no need for Windows 11 Pro in any way whatsoever. What you see in my specs is just my hobby setup. One of the reasons why I use Sandboxie-Plus is because it lets me avoid having to simultaneously run more than one OS. My work setup doesn't use anything Windows related.

Just about any modern PC with a compatible NIC (which almost all modern Intel NICs are) can suffice. A half decent 64-bit consumer CPU from Intel or AMD supports Intel VT-x or AMD-V, and having 16GB RAM installed in a PC has become mainstream.

You can use GRUB to chainload the ESXi bootloader so, you can set it up to allow dual-booting Windows 11 and ESXi (each installed on a separate partition or disk). You can't use native boot to boot ESXi from a VHD(x), but I don't see why you'd want that. If you're using a virtualized ESXi environment, you can use VMware Workstation or VMware Player to run ESXi as a virtual machine. With ESXi, nested virtualization also lets you run Hyper-V inside ESXi like I earlier said.

With the free version of ESXi, you don't get support from Broadcom, and the free version of ESXi was gone for some time so, many of the free version's users have moved to other hypervisors as a result. However, VMware remains the leading industry standard, which makes the free version of ESXi a viable choice to want to consider for personal use, like, setting up a home lab, for personal learning, and for hobby experiments, for example. Like I also earlier said, so is Hyper-V, especially if you're on Windows, but I will repeat that the same also holds true about many other choices.

One main problem with Esxi is that you need a "remote console" -- which requires something like Vsphere client to run a GUI to create and manage Virtual machines - I can;t see any way of doing this if you want Esxi and a VM on the same physical HOST with the Vsphere GUI also on the same physical machine. It works for example if you use a laptop as a separate machine - it preferably needs to be a Windows laptop to connect to the machine hosting esxi and the VM's.

@hdmi

Unless I have mis-understood how this whole thing works or what does one have to do to be able to create and access VM's on the machine hosting esxi and its vm's -- if you need a separate remote (even of on a LAN) client machine then this kills it for a lot of people.

What do you use then to create and manage the VM's -- I doubt if even experienced admins will mess around with a load of xml files - and does a vSphere client run from Linux laptops etc.

From Google - and no reason to doubt it :

No, the vSphere Client cannot be run on the same machine as the ESXi hypervisor. ESXi is a bare-metal hypervisor, meaning it runs directly on the hardware and doesn't require a separate operating system. The vSphere Client, which is used to manage ESXi hosts, needs to be installed on a separate machine, typically running a Windows operating system.

Added - possibly installing this and a VM or two on one of those "Mini PC's" is fine with a bog standard laptop to create the VM's should be OK -- but you definitely need at least 2 machines to make use of this. !!

Cheers
jimbo

Tester · Monday at 9:36 AM

Esx is just a command line gui.
You use vsphere cleint to connect to the machine to manage a single esx host.
Normally in company's we install a vm with windows server. Install vCenter onto it. (or multi vms as cluster). And those machines will manage all the hunderds of esx machines. All vpshere clients will connect to vCenter. Only in case of emergency you use the GUI. esx build to scale up alot. a single machine it might look it is a wrong design.

Ofcouse Hyper-V with windows works the same, as you can install hyper-v with windows server with only command line gui.

hdmi · Monday at 11:20 AM

jimbo45 said:
One main problem with Esxi is that you need a "remote console" -- which requires something like Vsphere client to run a GUI to create and manage Virtual machines - I can;t see any way of doing this if you want Esxi and a VM on the same physical HOST with the Vsphere GUI also on the same physical machine. It works for example if you use a laptop as a separate machine - it preferably needs to be a Windows laptop to connect to the machine hosting esxi and the VM's.

@hdmi

Unless I have mis-understood how this whole thing works or what does one have to do to be able to create and access VM's on the machine hosting esxi and its vm's -- if you need a separate remote (even of on a LAN) client machine then this kills it for a lot of people.

What do you use then to create and manage the VM's -- I doubt if even experienced admins will mess around with a load of xml files - and does a vSphere client run from Linux laptops etc.

From Google - and no reason to doubt it :

No, the vSphere Client cannot be run on the same machine as the ESXi hypervisor. ESXi is a bare-metal hypervisor, meaning it runs directly on the hardware and doesn't require a separate operating system. The vSphere Client, which is used to manage ESXi hosts, needs to be installed on a separate machine, typically running a Windows operating system.

Added - possibly installing this and a VM or two on one of those "Mini PC's" is fine with a bog standard laptop to create the VM's should be OK -- but you definitely need at least 2 machines to make use of this. !!

Cheers
jimbo

It's possible to use the vSphere Client within a virtual machine running on a free ESXi host to manage other VMs on the same host.

Tester said:
Esx is just a command line gui.
You use vsphere cleint to connect to the machine to manage a single esx host.
Normally in company's we install a vm with windows server. Install vCenter onto it. (or multi vms as cluster). And those machines will manage all the hunderds of esx machines. All vpshere clients will connect to vCenter. Only in case of emergency you use the GUI. esx build to scale up alot. a single machine it might look it is a wrong design.

Ofcouse Hyper-V with windows works the same, as you can install hyper-v with windows server with only command line gui.

The free version of ESXi does not support vCenter integration, though. It means that you cannot add free ESXi hosts to a vCenter server. With the free version of ESXi, you can manage hosts using the built-in web interface, which provides a similar experience to the vSphere Client for basic operations. It also means that you won't have access to advanced features like vMotion, HA, or DRS that require vCenter Server. (With the paid version of ESXi you can use a zero client and VMware View and a VMware Center VM to access the VMs directly on ESXi at the same physical mahine.)

Tester · Monday at 12:59 PM

hdmi said:
The free version of ESXi does not support vCenter integration, though. It means that you cannot add free ESXi hosts to a vCenter server.

Wierd?
I am able to add them to vCenter. Then after adding them to vCenter then we apply the correct licences to the esxi hosts, to get more features if those are wanted on those hosts.

hdmi · Monday at 4:26 PM

Tester said:
Wierd?
I am able to add them to vCenter. Then after adding them to vCenter then we apply the correct licences to the esxi hosts, to get more features if those are wanted on those hosts.

When you install ESXi, it runs in 60-day evaluation mode, which includes all features—including vCenter integration. During this period, you can add the host to vCenter, manage it, and apply a proper license afterward. Once the evaluation expires, the host disconnects from vCenter unless a valid license is assigned. So, to clear up the confusion, "the free version of ESXi" was referring to using a free license, not the 60-day trial.

jimbo45 · Tuesday at 4:44 AM

hdmi said:
When you install ESXi, it runs in 60-day evaluation mode, which includes all features—including vCenter integration. During this period, you can add the host to vCenter, manage it, and apply a proper license afterward. Once the evaluation expires, the host disconnects from vCenter unless a valid license is assigned. So, to clear up the confusion, "the free version of ESXi" was referring to using a free license, not the 60-day trial.

Also managing virtual machines on the same host isn't the same thing since you have to set up at least 1 VM first !!! then you can ssh or do whatever but that will require the use of the vSphere client connection from another machine to log into / create the ist VM. !!!

Esxi can be good if you've that type of hardware around but most domestic users just want to run a simple other version of Windows for legacy hardware / software, test other builds or try out a Linux distro or two -- nothing complex !!!.

Cheers
jimbo

hdmi · Tuesday at 10:07 AM

jimbo45 said:
you have to set up at least 1 VM first !!!

It's not that hard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/vmware/comments/1ckrxkz/comment/l2p866v

jimbo45 · 2025-07-16T03:28:02-0400

hdmi said:
It's not that hard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/vmware/comments/1ckrxkz/comment/l2p866v

Hi there
I'm stuck at STEP 1 -- Ok no problem to install Windows - that's easy enough !! but what's a "Windows based management Esxi management VM". -- does this mean a VM which itself is running esxi or what ???

I'd like to have a go with this but this 1st step is unclear and I'm reasonably computer literate. The rest is fine but if you can't get past step 1 it counts for nought. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

jimbo45 · 2025-07-16T04:34:31-0400

Hi there again @hdmi

I've given up on this for the moment as I'm finding playing around with "immutable" Linux stuff with containers is a lot more fun and "doable" quite easily on a single machine -- quite easy to have containers each with a different distro - where you can run software as normal.

The major difficulty in creating a KVM/QEMU system is that you need to create a proper URL link from the host via virtual-machine maager UI and the libvirt system running the VM inside the container -- it's a bit different to the traditional way of running things but seems a lot less likely to break systems !!! and make the whole thing reasonably "user-proof". !!

The Fedora Atomic desktops seem to be the best documented but there's no reason why you cant have debian, arch-linux , ubuntu containers -- with modern systems, plenty of RAM, fast Nvme type disks -s eems better than the classic way of installing VM's on a host machine with attendant problems if maintenance of the host causes the whole thing to collapse. These immutable systems can be rolled back in seconds if required !!!

Cheers
jimbo

hdmi · 2025-07-16T06:34:28-0400

jimbo45 said:
Hi there
I'm stuck at STEP 1 -- Ok no problem to install Windows - that's easy enough !! but what's a "Windows based management Esxi management VM". -- does this mean a VM which itself is running esxi or what ???

I'd like to have a go with this but this 1st step is unclear and I'm reasonably computer literate. The rest is fine but if you can't get past step 1 it counts for nought. !!!

1. Install Windows on the Physical PC
Use any supported version (Windows 10/11 or Server).
This is temporary—you’ll use it to build the management VM.

2. Create a Windows VM Using Hypervisor Software
Install VMware Workstation, VirtualBox, or Hyper-V on the Windows OS.
Create a new VM with:

2+ vCPUs
4–8 GB RAM
40+ GB disk space
Network adapter set to bridged or NAT

Install Windows inside this VM—this will be your management VM.

3. Install ESXi Management Tools in the VM
Install VMware Host Client, PowerCLI, or any browser to access ESXi.
Optionally install VMware Remote Console or vSphere CLI if you want advanced control.

4. Export the VM to USB
Shut down the VM.
Use your hypervisor’s export feature:

In VMware Workstation: File ➜ Export to OVF
In VirtualBox: File ➜ Export Appliance
In Hyper-V: Use Export-VM PowerShell cmdlet

Save the exported files (OVF/OVA or VM folder) to a USB drive.

After Installing ESXi on the PC
Once ESXi is installed on the same physical machine:

5. Import the Management VM into ESXi
Plug in the USB drive.
Use the ESXi Direct Console UI (DCUI) or SSH to upload the VM files to a datastore.
Register the VM using the ESXi Host Client or command line:

shell command:

vim-cmd solo/registervm /vmfs/volumes/datastore1/YourVM/YourVM.vmx

6. Configure Passthrough Devices
Enable USB passthrough and GPU passthrough in ESXi:

Go to Host ➜ Manage ➜ Hardware ➜ PCI Devices

Mark the GPU and USB controller for passthrough

Notes:

VMDirectPath I/O (PCI passthrough) is supported in the free version of ESXi, assuming your hardware meets the requirements

If your management VM uses passthrough devices (like GPU or USB), make sure:

The VM has full memory reservation (required for passthrough).
You've rebooted the host after enabling passthrough in the hardware settings.
You're using UEFI firmware in the VM for better compatibility with modern GPUs

Edit the VM settings to add these devices.

7. Connect Peripherals
Plug your monitor into the passthrough GPU.
Plug keyboard/mouse into passthrough USB ports.
Power on the VM—it should boot into Windows and display on the monitor.

jimbo45 · 2025-07-16T07:49:54-0400

hdmi said:
1. Install Windows on the Physical PC
Use any supported version (Windows 10/11 or Server).
This is temporary—you’ll use it to build the management VM.

2. Create a Windows VM Using Hypervisor Software
Install VMware Workstation, VirtualBox, or Hyper-V on the Windows OS.
Create a new VM with:

2+ vCPUs

4–8 GB RAM

40+ GB disk space

Network adapter set to bridged or NAT

Install Windows inside this VM—this will be your management VM.

3. Install ESXi Management Tools in the VM
Install VMware Host Client, PowerCLI, or any browser to access ESXi.
Optionally install VMware Remote Console or vSphere CLI if you want advanced control.

4. Export the VM to USB
Shut down the VM.
Use your hypervisor’s export feature:

In VMware Workstation: File ➜ Export to OVF

In VirtualBox: File ➜ Export Appliance

In Hyper-V: Use Export-VM PowerShell cmdlet

Save the exported files (OVF/OVA or VM folder) to a USB drive.

After Installing ESXi on the PC
Once ESXi is installed on the same physical machine:

5. Import the Management VM into ESXi
Plug in the USB drive.
Use the ESXi Direct Console UI (DCUI) or SSH to upload the VM files to a datastore.
Register the VM using the ESXi Host Client or command line:

shell command:
vim-cmd solo/registervm /vmfs/volumes/datastore1/YourVM/YourVM.vmx

6. Configure Passthrough Devices
Enable USB passthrough and GPU passthrough in ESXi:

Go to Host ➜ Manage ➜ Hardware ➜ PCI Devices
Mark the GPU and USB controller for passthrough
Notes:
VMDirectPath I/O (PCI passthrough) is supported in the free version of ESXi, assuming your hardware meets the requirements
If your management VM uses passthrough devices (like GPU or USB), make sure:

The VM has full memory reservation (required for passthrough).

You've rebooted the host after enabling passthrough in the hardware settings.

You're using UEFI firmware in the VM for better compatibility with modern GPUs

Edit the VM settings to add these devices.

7. Connect Peripherals
Plug your monitor into the passthrough GPU.
Plug keyboard/mouse into passthrough USB ports.
Power on the VM—it should boot into Windows and display on the monitor.

Thanks -- your step 2 clears that up - so I'll give that a go later

meanwhile I'm ptaying with a "layered solution" -- i.e this is akin to "classical package management and access to directories not usually available" on an "immutable" (Atomic desktop) linux box for creating a Windows VM via QEMU - the main issue if you use a Layered software solution i.e via rpm-ostree install is that networking doesn't play nice - bridged networking just goes bonkers !!! and using networks via containerisation is also totally bonkers.

If this type of desktop is to gain any traction in the wider user community things like creation of VM's must be made easier -- for the rest - running different Linux build inside containers works perfectly or even for just some specific apps.

I suspect Windows users too could run a load of things in containers instead of having one gigantic monolithic OS.!

Cheers
jimbo

Tasmania Green · 2025-07-16T23:03:30-0400

jimbo45 said:
people like @hdmi can (and do) give excellent technical info -- my use of VM's is much more at a practical - less theoretical level -- that's what I like about these forums -- people with broad spectrums of experience and interests etc contribute -- but as always - due diligence is the watchword as a load just google something and think the ist answer that comes up is "Gospel Truth" !!!

Cheers
jimbo

Lol. Yeah.

hdmi · 2025-07-17T01:17:24-0400

jimbo45 said:
I suspect Windows users too could run a load of things in containers instead of having one gigantic monolithic OS.!

Windows users have something that, in a variety of ways, often tends to be even much better than containers: Sandboxie-Plus.

Personally, I, don't run a VM for anything besides my work setup, and, this setup is completely separate from my 2 laptops that you see in my specs. Most of my work involves Jakarta EE, and only a little bit of Spring/Spring Boot so, usually, I develop mission-critical, data-centric applications that run on, e.g., JBoss EAP in multiple, large-scale virtualized environments.

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