Why do you use a Virtual Machine?

OldMainframeGuy · Dec 12, 2021

I run VirtualBox (on Windows 10 right now) so I can install a Linux distribution without having to worry about the pitfalls of dual-boot. It makes things very simple.

Rob

flashh4 · Dec 12, 2021

I use my VM to help remove Virus & other junk and pop-ups to my clients, i also test new programs to see which remove the Malware the best,fast and cleanest ! I also use it to roam "the Dark Side" !!
Chuck

NavyLCDR · Dec 12, 2021

I use VMs to help others on these forums. I can show them examples of how to do things in the VM that would destroy the data on my real disks. Did that once by mistake, wiped out my data drive when I entered a command on the host system rather than in the VM. Just as soon as I hit enter, it dawned on me what I had done - :ffs:

Wynona · Dec 12, 2021

larc919 said:
I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've set up any virtual Windows system. Even then, it's been just for play to see if I could do it. Never particularly excited by it or really needed it for anything. I've generally been able to accomplish what I want with the real thing.

Plus one, Larc! I've always built (or bought) my machines with adequate hdd/ssd storage space so I can partition them to run my choice of OS. Since I teach Windows 10 (and Windows 11 pretty soon) I only need the current version of both on my teaching machine. On the main machine at home, I run the current version of Windows 10 and DEV version of Windows 11.

Works for me and makes VMs unnecessary. That's just me.

NavyLCDR · Dec 12, 2021

Wynona said:
Plus one, Larc! I've always built (or bought) my machines with adequate hdd/ssd storage space so I can partition them to run my choice of OS. Since I teach Windows 10 (and Windows 11 pretty soon) I only need the current version of both on my teaching machine. On the main machine at home, I run the current version of Windows 10 and DEV version of Windows 11.

Works for me and makes VMs unnecessary. That's just me.

I used to do it almost exclusively that way (separate partitions). But now I find that if I need something quickly from a different OS than I am running, it's much easier to just start the VM and get it, then it is to reboot the entire computer. For example, the settings menus are very different between Windows 10 and Windows 11. If I am going to show someone how to do something in Windows 10 it's much easier for me to just the start the Windows 10 VM that is residing on my Windows 11 computer than it is to reboot the computer into a partition (or vhdx drive) containing Windows 10.

altae · Dec 12, 2021

I use an Arch Linux VM for all my online activity. Linux is much less likely to be infected by some malware that is floating around on the internet. Whats more it allows me to learn about Linux in general without having to dual boot or using a second computer.

njc9 · Dec 12, 2021

TheMystic said:
1. As an individual end user, what do YOU use the VM for?

- Run Debian Gnu\Linux, mainly for development
- Run Windows XP nostalgic reasons, and iTunes (wouldn't install iTunes anywhere else)
- Run a boxed from host system, secure envirnoment for web, torrent purposes
- Still trying to install Windows for Workgroups 3.11 for deeper nostalgic reasons, still not happening
- Install software I don't want on my host system, or to test it before installing on my host.

diggy33 · Dec 13, 2021

TheMystic said:
MAIN macOS - is that supposed to mean that you consider the mac hardware significantly superior to the one in your Windows machine? People normally limit their main machine for just their work and do all testing on a second machine.

I won’t be surprised if this is the M1+ Mac. :)

No, not at all; I have several machines at home, the one I referenced just happens to be the one that I do most of my toying around on- its a 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro. The VM's are isolated, so they have no impact to the host OS. This machine is great for what I use it for, and my Dell Precision 7530 is great for what I use it for. I do have a 13-inch MacBook Pro with M1 processor, and just received a new 16-inch MacBook Pro with M1 Pro chip (I really dislike the name) on Friday.

jimbo45 · Dec 13, 2021

Hi folks

I still use an XP VM to run legacy hardware that won't run on more modern OS'es -- e,g I have hardware that cuts Vinyl records so I can make Vinyl records to taste from users music files !! (quite a nice little sideline). The hardware works perfectly so no reason to spend 1000's of USD on new studio gear -- I'm not recording the "Met Opera house in New York" !!

That XP VM also runs an old HP 3-D Plotter (still fine for CAD Engineering / Archtechtural blueprints) and a 35 MM agfa photo scanner to digitise old kodachromes and B&W negatives. Works perfectly so why "toss it away". Also runs an old pro "MiniDisc Recorder" - which creates minidiscs without drm being the pro model. I think it was drm that killed off the minidisc while cd's are still "just about" still being made -- especially for Classical Music releases. The minidisc was at the time infinitely better and more reliable than CD's.

Other VM's are just to test software etc -- however I find though on Windows I have less use for running VM's as I find creating a VHDX file and testing the OS on real hardware a better bet that creating a VM -- although on a VM you do get the advantage of being able to run the OS'es concurrently so can compare for example the difference (if any) in behavious of upgrades / software.

For new hardware I prefer the vhdx route as you are on real hardware rather than a paravirtualised "virtual mobo".

So VM's -- old legacy hardware / software, testing software, some testing of new OS'e
VHDX method -- testing new Windows builds etc on real hardware.

Advantage of VM's - concurrent running, and OS isolation.
Running Other OS's than Windows as well as different versions and releases of Windows.
Running legacy apps and hardware.

Disadvantages - Overhead of the Host OS - although with HYPER-V on modern hardware that should be fairly small.

At least on Windows systems -- possible activation and license issues as each VM is a separate machine.

Advantages of vhdx method -- can have as many Windows systems as will fit on storage space - including being able to boot and run totally from external devices (aks WindowstoGo).
no License issues - if your W10/W11 license is OK -- each Windows 10 / 11 system created via dism /Apply-Image will activate via a digital license

No overhead for Host OS

Runs on Real hardware so good for trying out new hardware etc.

You can also teach windows to students - when each one has a vhdx image then they can do all sorts of exercises -- on a hose up just restore their vhdx image.

Disadvantages -- separate boot (i.e can't concurrently run multiple systems on the same machine.

OS Isolation not as good as with a VM as the OS can still "See" and have R/W access to other vhdx files. However in practice this isn't an issue assuming the person booting vhdx files has the knowlege to create and use them in the first place. Note though only W10 and W11 can be booted this way,

Totally new Windows builds can't be upgraded directly (you can "indirectly" by importing into a Hyper-V VM and upgrading that way) although WU works fine for typical updates and minor release upgrades.

So there's all sorts of reasons for using / testing VM's etc.

BTW for people wanting to use Linux in a VM -- theres the WSL available instead -- it's getting better and better with ability to install almost any distro whether in the store or not. The main problem is still running a desktop GUI -- although running GUI apps is relatively easily done. Full GUI's will soon be available and you can attach external USB's to a Linux machine in WSL2.

Cheers
jimbo

TheMystic · Dec 13, 2021

jimbo45 said:
Hi folks

I still use an XP VM to run legacy hardware that won't run on more modern OS'es -- e,g I have hardware that cuts Vinyl records so I can make Vinyl records to taste from users music files !! (quite a nice little sideline). The hardware works perfectly so no reason to spend 1000's of USD on new studio gear -- I'm not recording the "Met Opera house in New York" !!

That XP VM also runs an old HP 3-D Plotter (still fine for CAD Engineering / Archtechtural blueprints) and a 35 MM agfa photo scanner to digitise old kodachromes and B&W negatives. Works perfectly so why "toss it away". Also runs an old pro "MiniDisc Recorder" - which creates minidiscs without drm being the pro model. I think it was drm that killed off the minidisc while cd's are still "just about" still being made -- especially for Classical Music releases. The minidisc was at the time infinitely better and more reliable than CD's.

Other VM's are just to test software etc -- however I find though on Windows I have less use for running VM's as I find creating a VHDX file and testing the OS on real hardware a better bet that creating a VM -- although on a VM you do get the advantage of being able to run the OS'es concurrently so can compare for example the difference (if any) in behavious of upgrades / software.

For new hardware I prefer the vhdx route as you are on real hardware rather than a paravirtualised "virtual mobo".

So VM's -- old legacy hardware / software, testing software, some testing of new OS'e
VHDX method -- testing new Windows builds etc on real hardware.

Advantage of VM's - concurrent running, and OS isolation.
Running Other OS's than Windows as well as different versions and releases of Windows.
Running legacy apps and hardware.

Disadvantages - Overhead of the Host OS - although with HYPER-V on modern hardware that should be fairly small.

At least on Windows systems -- possible activation and license issues as each VM is a separate machine.

Advantages of vhdx method -- can have as many Windows systems as will fit on storage space - including being able to boot and run totally from external devices (aks WindowstoGo).
no License issues - if your W10/W11 license is OK -- each Windows 10 / 11 system created via dism /Apply-Image will activate via a digital license

No overhead for Host OS

Runs on Real hardware so good for trying out new hardware etc.

You can also teach windows to students - when each one has a vhdx image then they can do all sorts of exercises -- on a hose up just restore their vhdx image.

Disadvantages -- separate boot (i.e can't concurrently run multiple systems on the same machine.

OS Isolation not as good as with a VM as the OS can still "See" and have R/W access to other vhdx files. However in practice this isn't an issue assuming the person booting vhdx files has the knowlege to create and use them in the first place. Note though only W10 and W11 can be booted this way,

Totally new Windows builds can't be upgraded directly (you can "indirectly" by importing into a Hyper-V VM and upgrading that way) although WU works fine for typical updates and minor release upgrades.

So there's all sorts of reasons for using / testing VM's etc.

BTW for people wanting to use Linux in a VM -- theres the WSL available instead -- it's getting better and better with ability to install almost any distro whether in the store or not. The main problem is still running a desktop GUI -- although running GUI apps is relatively easily done. Full GUI's will soon be available and you can attach external USB's to a Linux machine in WSL2.

Cheers
jimbo

I think I will eventually move into the VHDX route. You're just too persistent.

ThrashZone · Dec 13, 2021

Hi,
I just install an os on it's own ssd if I want to use it linux/...
2.5" easy swap evo comes in handy doing this so no other os is effected by attacks/... and it's pretty straight forward shut down insert a different os and no sharing resources.

jimbo45 · Dec 13, 2021

TheMystic said:
I think I will eventually move into the VHDX route. You're just too persistent.

Hi there
Sometimes newer ways of doing things are better than older traditional routes (not always though). Actually it was @cereberus (thanks !!) who started me off at looking at vhdx files !!!!

I always found the "Old way" of multi-booting a mega pain especially needing separate partions, uefi areas etc etc. Current method works perfectly even from external devices - just 1 X uefi partition, 1 X 128mb MSR partition and a bog standard data area filled with vhdx images -- no need to partition Windows to install --simply dism apply-image and update the boot manager via bcdboot !!

Running on a laptop from external 500 GB SSD

Windows sees "C" Disk as a 97 GB disk which is the Windows 11 install the 22518 rs-prerelease and the data drive E.

The data drive E contains the vhdx files

(Disk D is the laptiops internal HDD which is not the current boot drive so not shown)

Cheers
jimbo

Hopachi · Dec 13, 2021

TheMystic said:
Although the concept of Virtual Machine has existed for a long time, it is only used by a tiny fraction of individuals for personal use. The reasons are usually one of the following:

1. Lack of awareness
2. Low system specs
3. No requirement

To be honest I don't really understand these three points.
1. How so? Does one run a VM if they don"t know what is for? That might happen in a low percentage as beginner or out of curoisity.
2. In which way? Host? Guest? If you have low system specs on your host then this will reduce the chance you run VMs properly.
3. For what exactly?

TheMystic said:
1. As an individual end user, what do YOU use the VM for?

2. Is it true that activities inside a VM like VirtualBox cannot be tracked by Microsoft?

1. Mostly for testing and running older programs (in older OSes) , in my case.
2. Not true. A VM is like a separate computer with its own bells and whistles so all will run normally by default. If your VM is for instance offline / not connected though a virtual ethernet port then naturally nothing moves to the internet.

pparks1 · Dec 13, 2021

NavyLCDR said:
I used to do it almost exclusively that way (separate partitions). But now I find that if I need something quickly from a different OS than I am running, it's much easier to just start the VM and get it, then it is to reboot the entire computer. For example, the settings menus are very different between Windows 10 and Windows 11. If I am going to show someone how to do something in Windows 10 it's much easier for me to just the start the Windows 10 VM that is residing on my Windows 11 computer than it is to reboot the computer into a partition (or vhdx drive) containing Windows 10.

Same here, used a VM at work today for this same purpose. Had another engineer who was having trouble installing the EPEL repository on a Red Hat Linux machine and then subsequently installing jq.

I discovered the host machines were running on Red Hat Enterprise 7.1...which is old and unpatched. Rather than experimenting on a production box, I grabbed the RH 7.1 ISO file, launched a RH 7.1 box and confirmed I had the same issue.

So, I turned off the VM and copied the 2GB .vhxd file into a backup folder. I then started the VM, ran yum update and after updating 300+ packages, we had no problems installing EPEL or jq. So, I turned it off, copied the 2GB hard drive file back. Turned it back on and installed about 1/2 of the updates and the issue wasn't resolved, did the 2nd half and it was fixed. So, restored it back and narrowed it down and ultimately discovered that it was curl and libcurl which needed to be updated in order to install EPEL and jq.

Copying that 2GB file on an NVMe drive sure beats the pants off setting up a dual boot or restoring a system backup from Macrium. In about 5 seconds, I can run a batch file to stop my VM, copy the file back and start it again to continue testing.

SoFine409 · Dec 13, 2021

Several reasons. Testing and experimentation. Also, after I recycled two older PCs this weekend. I realized that a had developed and deployed a local website for managing my mineral collection using on older version of Visual Studio. Since I was not about to spend the time to tweak the code for the current VS and re-deploy it, along with the SQL data base, I decided to just restore their Macrium images virtual drives and attach them to an existing VM (Hyper-V). They work great. Only downside was the length of time it took to restore the images but since that’s a one time deal, no big deal.

TheMystic · Dec 15, 2021

jimbo45 said:
Hi there
Sometimes newer ways of doing things are better than older traditional routes (not always though). Actually it was @cereberus (thanks !!) who started me off at looking at vhdx files !!!!

I always found the "Old way" of multi-booting a mega pain especially needing separate partions, uefi areas etc etc. Current method works perfectly even from external devices - just 1 X uefi partition, 1 X 128mb MSR partition and a bog standard data area filled with vhdx images -- no need to partition Windows to install --simply dism apply-image and update the boot manager via bcdboot !!

Running on a laptop from external 500 GB SSD

Windows sees "C" Disk as a 97 GB disk which is the Windows 11 install the 22518 rs-prerelease and the data drive E.

View attachment 16110

The data drive E contains the vhdx files

View attachment 16111

(Disk D is the laptiops internal HDD which is not the current boot drive so not shown)

Cheers
jimbo

If I get stuck and need help, will you help for free or fee?

TheMystic · Dec 15, 2021

Hopachi said:
To be honest I don't really understand these three points.
1. How so? Does one run a VM if they don"t know what is for? That might happen in a low percentage as beginner or out of curoisity.
2. In which way? Host? Guest? If you have low system specs on your host then this will reduce the chance you run VMs properly.
3. For what exactly?

1. Mostly for testing and running older programs (in older OSes) , in my case.
2. Not true. A VM is like a separate computer with its own bells and whistles so all will run normally by default. If your VM is for instance offline / not connected though a virtual ethernet port then naturally nothing moves to the internet.

1. Lack of awareness: Simply means people are not even aware that there is something called Virtual Machine. So obviously no question of them using one.

2. Host, of course: For a long time I thought VMs won't run smoothly on my old laptop. That proved to be wrong when I actually installed a VM.

3. There are many users with a high config computer and also aware of VMs. But they don't use it because they don't have a requirement to run multiple systems.

Wynona · Dec 15, 2021

TheMystic said:
1. Lack of awareness: Simply means people are not even aware that there is something called Virtual Machine. So obviously no question of them using one.

2. Host, of course: For a long time I thought VMs won't run smoothly on my old laptop. That proved to be wrong when I actually installed a VM.

3. There are many users with a high config computer and also aware of VMs. But they don't use it because they don't have a requirement to run multiple systems.

I don't run a virtual machine because I made made sure to have enough SSD/HDD space for dual or triple booting. And the reason I do that is because I want to test on actual rather than digital hardware.

TheMystic · Dec 15, 2021

Wynona said:
I don't run a virtual machine because I made made sure to have enough SSD/HDD space for dual or triple booting. And the reason I do that is because I want to test on actual rather than digital hardware.

People often prefer VMs for the convenience of using them, testing software without risking their main (host) system, ease of backing them up, etc. With a decent hardware, VMs run just as fluidly as the host. So there are a lot of advantages of using VMs over multi-booting systems.

pparks1 · Dec 15, 2021

Wynona said:
I don't run a virtual machine because I made made sure to have enough SSD/HDD space for dual or triple booting. And the reason I do that is because I want to test on actual rather than digital hardware.

And that totally makes sense. Everything depends upon what it is that you are trying to accomplish. If I were needing higher performance and direct hardware support, I would hit it with a multiboot as well.

My usage of virtual machines revolves around learning about a technology. I don't always need speed and performance, but rather just a nice isolated place to run it. And it's nice when I still have my base OS up and running where I can write documentation, or use a web browser to research problems that I might be experiencing in my other system.

Nobody should really feel they are missing out by not running a virtual machine. They aren't the answer for everything.