Why Linux isn't a replacement for Windows 10 if you can't run Windows 11 - debate!

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

spapakons said:
Apple deliberately leaves out older computers with every new Mac OS version.

leaving out support for 10+ years old computers for latest OS version makes sense to me. Also Apple moved over to ARM from Intel, so it makes sense if the cycle got a bit shorter now.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

Are you sure the MacBook at this price range would be triple the performance of a high end Windows laptop? I seriously doubt that. I don't know how much cheaper Macs are in USA, but here in Greece you pay for the basic crappiest model over 1000€ and with this amount you can buy a much better Windows laptop in terms of performance, not an entry model! Apple is one of the companies where "you get what you pay for" doesn't apply. A Retina monitor is not essential for non-photography or video use, and this alone is not worth paying these ridiculously high prices. Most non-creative users would be OK with a regular 1920x1080 or even 1366x768 monitor. Also I hate Apple telling me my very expensive Mac is obsolete after some years! I bought my current PC in 2013 and still use it and the performance is much higher than I need. A same age Mac would not update to recent Mac OS versions and I would have great difficulty to find much older versions of applications to use, rendering it useless and a waste of my money. No thanks!

PS: Don't forget that current MacBooks use Apple Silicon and this makes them incompatible with x86 OSes, including Windows. So If eventually they cannot be upgraded to a current Mac OS version and the last version they run is obsolete and useless, you don't have the luxury to just wipe the disk and install Windows! Yes, you can do it in Parallels or other virtual machine, but it won't be the same in terms of performance and compatibility! Take that into account next time you consider buying a Mac.

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

spapakons said:
Are you sure the MacBook at this price range would be triple the performance of a high end Windows laptop?

100% certain. Windows laptops in 1000€ range are dog poop in comparison. Sometimes performance can be better but battery life is even worse than mentioned and build quality is absolutely horrible compared to Apples offerings.

Yet I keep using this PC garbage. Makes me question my life's choices.

My daughter has a MacBook air and it's 2x faster than my laptop with 4x battery life. Cost her a bit over 900€

jimbo45 · Jul 24, 2025

SlicEnDicE said:
Actually Apple devices are quite cheap today compared to a Windows PC equivalent. That Apple products are expensive is in the past.

My Thinkpad cost me 2200€, while I could get a MacBook with triple the performace and quadruple the battery life for half the price.

The math does not add up no matter how you twist and turn it.

Android Studio does not use Linux kernel for anything, nor does it emulate anything (unless we talk about the Android VMs, but that's not what I'm talking about. There performace is ok.). It's a programming software like any software on the market for PCs.

What I know for a fact is that Gradle is incredibly sluggish on Windows. It's close to 10x faster on Linux.

@SlicEnDicE

But you can get great decent performing minipc's for less than €200 !!! and that includes W11 PRO on them too !!!! The latest Intel N100's plus later cpu's for these boxes etc have more poke in them than you might expect, plus internal Nvme instead of a "classical 2.5 inch" SSD up to 32GB DDR RAM 2X 4kUHD graphic ports fast latest Wifi and Lan port, internal audio port plus usbc/ usb3 slots --- .

So for that thinkpad I could get almost 10 !!! of these minipc's so even for gaming you could dedicate 1 for a specific game that needed loads of resources !! -- These mini PC's run Linux extremely fast plus make brilliant test beds, small servers etc etc.

If you aren't needing a laptop -- i.e travelling etc then these mini PC's seem to be the way to go -at least for loads who don't have exceedingly specialized needs like intensive commercial Game development etc.

You can usually run 2 VM's concurrently on these with decent performance -- OK not a commercial server but for typical home use they are brilliant.

I have one of these boxes totally dedicated to a home video security system - the whole setup was loads of €'s cheaper than typical "commercial" security options -- and IT WORK'S without any monthly subscription fees - and can even call the police automatically if I set conditions, plus it calls me if there's visitors when I'm not at home. All "Home Brewed" (mainly Python code I might add running on Linux Debian LTSC -- chose that as it's 100% stable and I don't plan on any updates / software changes to that box).!!!!!!!!!).

Cheers
jimbo

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

jimbo45 said:
But you can get great decent performing minipc's for less than €200 !!! and that includes W11 PRO on them too !!!! The latest Intel N100's etc have more poke in them than you might expect, plus internal Nvme instead of a "classical 2.5 inch" SSD up to 32GB DDR RAM 2X 4kUHD graphic ports fast latest Wifi and Lan port, internal audio port plus usbc/ usb3 slots --- so for that thinkpad I could get almost 10 !!! of these so even for gaming you could dedicate 1 for a specific game that needed loads of resources !! -- These mini PC's run Linux extremely fast plus make brilliant test beds, small servers etc etc.

A Macbook beats these 200€ mini PCs in performance. It's not even a competition. It's a slaughter.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

Yes, buying a cheap refurbished computer to replace our much older desktops that cannot be upgraded to Windows 11 24H2 is an option, but here we discuss if we can install Linux or other OS in our existing computers and if Linux is a reasonable replacement for Windows for everyday use. Of course, for very old Core 2 Duo era computer than cannot be upgraded to Windows 11 24H2, I would rather replace them with a cheap refurbished model with much better specs, than install Linux. But for mid-range or high end computers like my current desktop replacing them is still an expensive option, even with a refurbished model, if you want the same range of features. If you settle for a cheaper model and sacrifice some features, then it's another story. For this reason I will try to upgrade to the latest Windows version whenever possible and when that won't be feasible anymore, I will consider a replacement. Thankfully 25H2 has the same hardware requirements as 24H2, so I can still upgrade and have official support at least up to October 2027.

jimbo45 · Jul 24, 2025

SlicEnDicE said:
A Macbook beats these 200€ mini PCs in performance. It's not even a competition. It's a slaughter.

@SlicEnDicE

Of course performance wise -- not an issue or even any contention --it depends of course on what you need to do. A Ferrari sitting in a big traffic jam can't go any faster than a big modern agricultural tractor. For typical Windows work / Officy stuff most of the poor performance is usually due to slow disks (seen that more times than I/ve had hot dinners !!), poor network / Internet connections whether at the ISP level or overload on the destination web sites, shortage of RAM, and poorly written application code.

Of course a Macbook is lightning fast but who needs that just for doing email, surfing the net , streaming media, teams / whatsapp, or messing around with powerpoint,, word, and excel documents.I agree for serious development , video editing and especially using AI and gaming - point taken but for around 80% these days probably mega overkill.

Cheers
jimbo

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

jimbo45 said:
@SlicEnDicE

Of course performance wise -- not an issue or even any contention --it depends of course on what you need to do. A Ferrari sitting in a big traffic jam can't go any faster than a big modern agricultural tractor. For typical Windows work / Officy stuff most of the poor performance is usually due to slow disks (seen that more times than I/ve had hot dinners !!), poor network / Internet connections whether at the ISP level or overload on the destination web sites, shortage of RAM, and poorly written application code.

Of course a Macbook is lightning fast but who needs that just for doing email, surfing the net , streaming media, teams / whatsapp, or messing around with powerpoint,, word, and excel documents.I agree for serious development , video editing and especially using AI and gaming - point taken but for around 80% these days probably mega overkill.

Cheers
jimbo

Fair enough.

These mini PCs are good enough and very good for their size. No question. But the sum adds up quite fast once you start adding RAM and disks. I've tried building something decent for myself, but every time price goes way beyond 1000€ because of my requirements.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

jimbo45 said:
@SlicEnDicE

Of course performance wise -- not an issue or even any contention --it depends of course on what you need to do. A Ferrari sitting in a big traffic jam can't go any faster than a big modern agricultural tractor. For typical Windows work / Officy stuff most of the poor performance is usually due to slow disks (seen that more times than I/ve had hot dinners !!), poor network / Internet connections whether at the ISP level or overload on the destination web sites, shortage of RAM, and poorly written application code.

Of course a Macbook is lightning fast but who needs that just for doing email, surfing the net , streaming media, teams / whatsapp, or messing around with powerpoint,, word, and excel documents.I agree for serious development , video editing and especially using AI and gaming - point taken but for around 80% these days probably mega overkill.

Cheers
jimbo

Plus for the same amount you would pay for a Mac you would buy a PC with much better specs, so you should really need a Mac (photo or video editing, animation, and the like) to invest on one, or you are wasting your money to get less performance. As said before, a retina screen is not enough for me to justify these prices. Needless to say that most of the creative applications also have a Windows version with exactly the same functionality, compatibility and performance, so I cannot justify to use the Mac version. Most buy a MacBook to show off because of the "cool design", not because of its features or performance. Same with iPhone and other Apple hardware. Many Apple hardware owner don't even take advantage of their features or even know what these are and how to use them.

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

@spapakons I think you're underestimating how performant Macs are these days. And I'm only talking about MacBooks compared to the rest of the PC market.

ditendra08 · Jul 24, 2025

Personally speaking from my own experience... Tried Linux several times (probably 8-9 times) and everytime I went back to Windows, because there were always some issues with Linux and when you come home from work, you want to relax, not to deal with OS and how to fix things. You like it or not, at some point on Linux you always need to deal with terminal and commands or search Internet how to make this or that working. Also, despite the fact that gaming has been improved on Linux, it's still not near with games on Windows, especially if you're playing online games, where on Windows game patches or updates come much faster. Don't think Linux will ever replace Windows as a desktop OS for most users. They don't even have unity and one distro to focus to improve, instead they have tons of distroes which in my opinion is stupid. Why make so many distros, when you could just focus on one OS/distro and try to improve it? And I'm not even talking about drivers issues on Linux or lack of some popular softwares (Adobe, MS office...).

I'll give you one example of my experience why Linux is not a polished deskop OS for average users... Installed Linux, decided to install driver for motherboard so I can have equalizer and configure it with my taste. Turns out there are no drivers for my motherboard for Linux. So, I had to search for some equalizer plugin to install. Installed it, but then encountered another issue: First this equalizer doesn't start itself on a startup and second issue - there's some static sound after every track I played in a player and couldn't even find a solution for it. And obviously at that point I was so frustrated that I was wasting my precious time for fixing things that on Windows I didn't even have, that I just simply uninstalled Linux next day and went to Windows and this example is one of many ones.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

And if we PC experts struggle with Linux, imagine a novice PC user! Nightmare! So switch to Linux in your own PC if you are willing to deal with all the shortcomings and issues, but avoid recommending it for everyone. It is not Panacea, sorry Linux fans. If Linux was as good as you present it, from 1991 until today all these years it would have a much larger market share (speaking for desktop PCs, not workstations or servers). Since it still has a small base, this explains why it is not the answer to all your problems. Again is not Panacea.

jimbo45 · Jul 24, 2025

ditendra08 said:
Personally speaking from my own experience... Tried Linux several times (probably 8-9 times) and everytime I went back to Windows, because there were always some issues with Linux and when you come home from work, you want to relax, not to deal with OS and how to fix things. You like it or not, at some point on Linux you always need to deal with terminal and commands or search Internet how to make this or that working. Also, despite the fact that gaming has been improved on Linux, it's still not near with games on Windows, especially if you're playing online games, where on Windows game patches or updates come much faster. Don't think Linux will ever replace Windows as a desktop OS for most users. They don't even have unity and one distro to focus to improve, instead they have tons of distroes which in my opinion is stupid. Why make so many distros, when you could just focus on one OS/distro and try to improve it? And I'm not even talking about drivers issues on Linux or lack of some popular softwares (Adobe, MS office...).

I'll give you one example of my experience why Linux is not a polished deskop OS for average users... Installed Linux, decided to install driver for motherboard so I can have equalizer and configure it with my taste. Turns out there are no drivers for my motherboard for Linux. So, I had to search for some equalizer plugin to install. Installed it, but then encountered another issue: First this equalizer doesn't start itself on a startup and second issue - there's some static sound after every track I played in a player and couldn't even find a solution for it. And obviously at that point I was so frustrated that I was wasting my precious time for fixing things that on Windows I didn't even have, that I just simply uninstalled Linux next day and went to Windows and this example is one of many ones.

Most Linux's these days just RUN straight OOTB. If you need to install motherboard drivers etc you are either using really obscure hardware or a bonkers Linux distro. The newer "immutable ones" are even simpler.

I must have run in the last 6 months OPENSUSE, ARCHLINUX, UBUNTU,FEDORA,DEBIAN, and LINUX MINT on about 40 to 50 computers of varying sorts for all sorts of users -- never needed a single instance of having to find I needed to load a MOBO hardware driver. Stick to one of these 6 and you can't really go wrong.

Here's an example of opensuse KDE desktop with a Windows 11 VM on it - the menu / interface is "windows-y" enough for typical windows users if they want to try this stuff and it's incredibly simple to get a decently performinhg Windows VM on it if they want to (which can run totally full screen if they want access to Windows apps that aren't available on the Linux desktop). KVM/QEMU virtualisation is a type 1 Hypervisor (like HYPER-V) and can run VM's at all but native speed if set up correctly !!.

Cheers
jimbo

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

Yes, KDE looks like using Windows, so a novice user should not have any issues, as long as an expert user installs everything for him and he doesn't try to install anything himself. As long as all the applications he needs are available and stick to them he won't notice much difference. But eventually he will want to install a new application or face some other issue. What then? Are you willing to support him forever? I am not, even with friends and relatives, so I won't install Linux on his PC. That is IF all the applications he uses in Windows exist in Linux or I can find alternatives that are not difficult to use and have the same features. This is not the case with many applications I use daily. Also I tell my relatives and friends to consult me before buying any hardware, but they hardly do, just buy a "bargain" or anything it catches their eye. Imagine the novice user buying a device and cannot use it in Linux. He will call me for help and spend hours to find a solution, IF there is one. Need to say more?

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

spapakons said:
And if we PC experts struggle with Linux

One is never an expert before one knows what they are doing. Everything takes some time to learn. Being a PC expert does not automatically mean you are a Windows or Linux expert.

...but anyways...Linux today is very easy to use. Just point and click in most cases. For the rare occasion you might want to fire up the bash terminal, there exists man pages for every single binary you can run there. They are quite good. If that is not enough, then consult the Arch wiki for further assistance. It's brilliant!

If one can't read manuals and follow instructions, then one should stop using computers all together and go back to school and learn to read and write.MHO!

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

Yes, you and me can read manuals and follow instructions, although I hate it when this happens too often. Using Linux it happens more often than my limited patience can handle. What about an inexperienced PC user? Try telling him he has to Google for help for everything he wants to do in his computer. He won't bother, he will just call, blame you, and demand that you do it for him. Even worse if he is an older generation relative. I am not willing to go help all the time, especially with something I don't like using, such as Linux. I could tolerate to help a few times with Windows issues, but for Linux that's not what I want. Like I said, since I don't like it and I don't use it daily (except for the occasional experiment with Ubuntu on a virtual machine), I cannot recommend it to others. If I cannot find a newer Windows version to use on their old PC, I prefer to say it is junk and they should replace it, rather than mess with Linux.

PS: I don't buy it that you rarely need the terminal in Linux. This is if you never install new hardware or software and never update anything. Just open Firefox and some other apps and use them. When time comes to install anything new, then you need the terminal. Including if you want to change a setting not available from the GUI.

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

If my friend of 68 years of age, who had never touched a computer in his life before, can setup and use both Windows and Linux, and quite efficiently too, I might add. Then anybody should be able to do it with at least just a small nudge in the right direction.

Then there do ofc exist those who are ignorant and are forced out of necessity to use computers even though they are not the least interested and never will. But those kinds of people will require help no matter the OS.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2025

SlicEnDicE said:
If my friend of 68 years of age, who had never touched a computer in his life before, can setup and use both Windows and Linux, and quite efficiently too, I might add. Then anybody should be able to do it with at least just a small nudge in the right direction.

Then there do ofc exist those who are ignorant and are forced out of necessity to use computers even though they are not the least interested and never will. But those kinds of people will require help no matter the OS.

Yes, but the easier and more user friendly the OS is, the less help they will need. No matter how easy Linux becomes, it is still not Windows.

SlicEnDicE · Jul 24, 2025

spapakons said:
Yes, but the easier and more user friendly the OS is, the less help they will need. No matter how easy Linux becomes, it is still not Windows.

Of course it will never be Windows, thus the different name. Easy is relative. Everything is easy if you know how to do it.

jimbo45 · Jul 24, 2025

spapakons said:
Yes, you and me can read manuals and follow instructions, although I hate it when this happens too often. Using Linux it happens more often than my limited patience can handle. What about an inexperienced PC user? Try telling him he has to Google for help for everything he wants to do in his computer. He won't bother, he will just call, blame you, and demand that you do it for him. Even worse if he is an older generation relative. I am not willing to go help all the time, especially with something I don't like using, such as Linux. I could tolerate to help a few times with Windows issues, but for Linux that's not what I want. Like I said, since I don't like it and I don't use it daily (except for the occasional experiment with Ubuntu on a virtual machine), I cannot recommend it to others. If I cannot find a newer Windows version to use on their old PC, I prefer to say it is junk and they should replace it, rather than mess with Linux.

I'm sure we were ALL inexperienced users at some time or another whether of Linux, Windows or anything else. -- I'd love to see how the modern youngsters would have coped with IBM's legendary complex mainframe JCL (job control language) without assistance of whatsapp etc etc. !!!!

For those interested you can try this stuff out on even a modest PC with the Hercules emulator and the IBM MVS/SP project (both free -- the IBM mainframe OS MVS/SP2 with JES2 or JES3 s now in public domain) . Just try compiling a Fortran / Cobol / Pl/1 program and executing it -- you can try all that stuff out if interested - so lack of patience is not an excuse.

The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator

www.hercules-390.org

Hercules

MVS 3.8j under Hercules: Tutorials and Resources

www.jaymoseley.com

We can't all be like W.A Mozart who could play the piano brilliantly almost the first time he ever saw one. I love trying to "tickle the ivories" but still after 40 years I regard myself as a beginner. !!

Anyway I think we've done this stuff to death. Some like it, some hate it, others don't care.

Cheers
jimbo

Why Linux isn't a replacement for Windows 10 if you can't run Windows 11 - debate!

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