Solved Your opinion on the 'Can of Worms' that is TPM


The data processed by the TPM is separate from the OS and contained within the TPM microprocessor ONLY. With a TPM problem, backups won't help you. If a pin fails, somehow the TPM communicates that to the windows logon process that makes it give the option of using a password. No, I am not smart enough to know exactly how it does this. But when multiple people across the web complain of TPM related problems and say that they are never offered to enter a password, I have no reason to doubt them all. Anyone who has worked with computers as long as I have knows that crap can happen and does happen to screw up the normal flow of events.
That's not how it works. Let me explain...

Assuming you are using BitLocker: When you perform a backup, the data is decrypted on the fly so what you are actually backing up is a decrypted copy of all the data on the disk. It's exactly the same as it would be when you sit in front of the computer and access any file. say for example that you open a Word document. That document is decrypted from the disk on the fly so that you can access it. Same thing happens as you create your backup - the data is decrypted on the fly. This is why companies such as Macrium note this and recommend that you still employ encryption within their backup software.

If you are not using BitLocker: In that case, loss of the TPM doesn't matter. Your data is still safely backed up as usual and can be restored without your pin or password (the backup password would still be needed). Remember, if I have physical access to your machine, I can easily get at all your data, if you are not using disk encryption such as BitLocker, regardless of whether I have your password or pin. Your password or pin only secures access to your data if someone does not have physical access to your system.

EDIT: Just adding another example. Take a Windows disk and remove it from your computer. Plug it into another system. You can access all data easily. Doesn't matter whether or not you had a TPM unless you are using full disk encryption such as BitLocker. That is the very reason that full disk encryption exists.
 

My Computers

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    Win11 Pro 23H2
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  • Operating System
    Win11 Pro 23H2
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    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo ThinkBook 13x Gen 2
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    Intel i7-1255U
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    16 GB
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    2 TB 4 x 4 NVMe SSD
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    Backlit, spill resistant keyboard
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    WiFi 6e / Bluetooth 5.1 / Facial Recognition / Fingerprint Sensor / ToF (Time of Flight) Human Presence Sensor
When setting up a Pin number I always look at phone numbers here in the UK phone numbers are 11 digits, which gives Nine billion variations. ( and that assumes that someone trying to guess knows how many characters are needed so the real number is much larger )

I find that I can use the numeric keyboard to type an eleven digit number in a second or two which helps with those looking over shoulders

Of course don't pick a current or recent number that is tied to yourself, but we all have a number that sticks with you from our past life An old home phone number including the code or a parents number or a works number. This sort of thing will be remembered, so does not have to be recorded anywhere, except on the local PC (Windows Pin Numbers are stored and processed locally so are more secure than passwords which MAY be held online
 

My Computers

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    Windows 11 Pro x64 [Latest Release Preview] [Win11 PRO HighEnd MUP-00005 DD]
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    Manufacturer/Model
    Scan 3XS to my design
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    AMD RYZEN 9 7950X OEM
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    Also run...
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  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro x64 [Latest release]
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    Dell XPS 17 9700
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    i7 10750H
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    Stock
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    32 GB
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    Stock Illuminated + Logi - MX Keys
    Internet Speed
    950 MB Down 55 MB Up
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    Also use an Adjustable Support for Laptop and Adjustable stand for monitor
Well I can honestly say the TMP has had no effect, I have just updated my BIOS and all went well, no problems at all. I use automatic logon with netplwiz I had to change from a pin to a password to do it. great, works a treat. If I change things or create a task etc. it asks for my password if I logout and back in, it asks for my pin which works fine as well
 

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    Windows 11 Pro
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    Laptop
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    Alienware M18 R1
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    13th Gen Core i9 13900HX
    Memory
    32GB DDR5 @4800MHz 2x16GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Geforce RTX 4090HX 16GB
    Sound Card
    Nvidia HD / Realtek ALC3254
    Monitor(s) Displays
    18" QHD+
    Screen Resolution
    25660 X 1600
    Hard Drives
    C: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
    D: KIOXIA (Toshiba) 2TB KXG80ZNV2T04 NVMe PCIe M.2 SSD
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    Dark Metallic Moon
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    Alienware M Series per-key AlienFX RGB
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    Bluetooth 5.2
    Alienware Z01G Graphic Amplifier
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Alienware Area 51m R2
    CPU
    10th Gen i-9 10900 K
    Memory
    32Gb Dual Channel DDR4 @ 8843MHz
    Graphics card(s)
    Nvidia RTX 2080 Super
    Sound Card
    Nvidia
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    Hard Drive C: Samsung 2TB SSD PM981a NVMe
    Hard Drive D:Samsung 2TB SSD 970 EVO Plus
    Mouse
    Alienware 610M
    Browser
    Chrome
    Antivirus
    Norton
If you create a pin that is not just the minimum 4 digits but as you can, use a mixture of numbers and letters, that isn't IMO any quicker logging on than using a decent local password, both are stored locally and hashed.
I wouldn't use a phone number as such, even old numbers may still be linked to you somewhere online, I recently removed one from 10 years ago from a supplier, I hadn't used for a long time, might consider using one backwards though.
 

My Computers

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  • OS
    Windows 11 22H2 OS Build 22623.1095
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    PC/Desktop
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    Self Build
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 7 3800X
    Motherboard
    Asus PRIME B350-PLUS
    Memory
    16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 @3000Mhz
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    ASUS - GeForce RTX 3070 Ti 8 GB TUF GAMING OC
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    On Board Realtec
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    Acer KA241
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    1920 x 1080 @60Hz
    Hard Drives
    240GB PNY CS900 SSD - OS
    2 x 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD
    1 x 500GB Crucial MX300 SSD
    2TB Seagate ST2000DM001-1ER164
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    750 Watt Corsair TX750 Plus
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    Cooler Master 690 III
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    Akasa AK98 5 Case Fans
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    Logitech K270 - wireless
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    Logitech - M185 wireless
    Internet Speed
    BT Fibre 75 Mbps
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    Windows Defender
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    Use hardware KVM to switch monitors on three PCs and software (input director) to use mouse and keyboard on all 4 PCs.
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Pro 22H2 build 22621.900
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    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Inspiron 3881 - modified with SFX PSU fitted internally
    CPU
    Intel i5 - 10400
    Motherboard
    Dell 032w55 version A00
    Memory
    16GB of HyperX Fury @ 2133 Mhz
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA 6GB GTX 1060.
    Sound Card
    Builtin
    Monitor(s) Displays
    ACER KA241
    Screen Resolution
    1920x 1080 @60Hz
    Hard Drives
    256GB SK hynix NVMe
    1TB Western Digital WD10EZEX-75WN4A1
    PSU
    Modular 450 Watt Corsair SF450 Platinum ( Mod to replace the Dell 265 Watt PSU)
    Case
    Inspiron Small Desktop
    Cooling
    Dell stock cooler
    Mouse
    Dell
    Keyboard
    Dell
    Internet Speed
    BT Fibre 75 Mbps
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    Use hardware KVM to switch monitors on three PCs and software (input director) to use mouse and keyboard on all 4 PCs.
That's not how it works. Let me explain...
Respectfully, I say part of your statement is incorrect. You keep talking bitlocker. I am not talking about TPM's relationship with bitlocker. I am talking about TPM's relationship with Windows Hello. Bitlocker and Windows Hello is apples and oranges...2 separate functions of TPM. When a TPM is present, bitlocker uses it, but you can configure bitlocker through local group policy even if you do not have TPM. You cannot use Windows Hello without TPM.
Example: I have TPM 2.0. I do not use bitlocker. I do use Windows Hello. Windows Hello is a separate function from Bitlocker.

This Windows Hello authentication key is stored strictly within the TPM chip, NOT on the hard drive. A backup does not backup the information on the TPM chip.

When the PIN is created, it establishes a trusted relationship with the identity provider and creates an asymmetric key pair that is used for authentication. When you enter your PIN, it unlocks the authentication key within the TPM and it is that key to sign the request that is sent to the authenticating server. If for whatever reason this authentication key within the TPM gets corrupted, a Pin would not work, and the user is given the option to use a password. This is the part of the process that has failed for some people. Just because it has NOT YET happened for you or me does not mean that it can't happen.

Don't believe me about how it works. Read the Microsoft document.

That's the basis of my argument that taking WIndows Hello out of the equation is one thing a user can do to possibly make life easier on down the road. I am content to agree to disagree because we all have our own understanding of all the smoke and mirrors that is Windows.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 22631.3296
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 7080
    CPU
    i9-10900 10 core 20 threads
    Motherboard
    DELL 0J37VM
    Memory
    32 gb
    Graphics Card(s)
    none-Intel UHD Graphics 630
    Sound Card
    Integrated Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    1tb Solidigm m.2 +256gb ssd+512 gb usb m.2 sata
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell Premium
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Internet Speed
    so slow I'm too embarrassed to tell
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro 22H2 19045.3930
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 9020
    CPU
    i7-4770
    Memory
    24 gb
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    256 gb Toshiba BG4 M.2 NVE SSB and 1 tb hdd
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell factory
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Internet Speed
    still not telling
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
Respectfully, I say part of your statement is incorrect.
You may notice that I reference both with and without BitLocker. I was differentiating between the two. My point is that if you have a backup you can recover from anything - even if Windows Hello and your password fail. There is no circumstance whatsoever that you cannot recover from if you have a <good> backup.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win11 Pro 23H2
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Home Built
    CPU
    Intel i7-11700K
    Motherboard
    ASUS Prime Z590-A
    Memory
    128GB Crucial Ballistix 3200MHz DRAM
    Graphics Card(s)
    No GPU - CPU graphics only (for now)
    Sound Card
    Realtek (on motherboard)
    Monitor(s) Displays
    HP Envy 32
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440
    Hard Drives
    1 x 1TB NVMe Gen 4 x 4 SSD
    1 x 2TB NVMe Gen 3 x 4 SSD
    2 x 512GB 2.5" SSDs
    2 x 8TB HD
    PSU
    Corsair HX850i
    Case
    Corsair iCue 5000X RGB
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black cooler + 10 case fans
    Keyboard
    CODE backlit mechanical keyboard
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3
    Internet Speed
    1Gb Up / 1 Gb Down
    Browser
    Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    Additional options installed:
    WiFi 6E PCIe adapter
    ASUS ThunderboltEX 4 PCIe adapter
  • Operating System
    Win11 Pro 23H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo ThinkBook 13x Gen 2
    CPU
    Intel i7-1255U
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel Iris Xe Graphics
    Sound Card
    Realtek® ALC3306-CG codec
    Monitor(s) Displays
    13.3-inch IPS Display
    Screen Resolution
    WQXGA (2560 x 1600)
    Hard Drives
    2 TB 4 x 4 NVMe SSD
    PSU
    USB-C / Thunderbolt 4 Power / Charging
    Mouse
    Buttonless Glass Precision Touchpad
    Keyboard
    Backlit, spill resistant keyboard
    Internet Speed
    1Gb Up / 1Gb Down
    Browser
    Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    WiFi 6e / Bluetooth 5.1 / Facial Recognition / Fingerprint Sensor / ToF (Time of Flight) Human Presence Sensor
On my sign-in screen, if I select Sign in Options two icons appear. The left icon, a keypad, when I hover my mouse over it the pop out says PIN. The right icon for computer login the pop out says Microsoft Account Password. I know some people don't have a MS account password for whatever reason. In those cases if their PIN fails, they may or not be prompted for a password. Without a MS account password, they could be locked out. At least that's the way I see it, just thinking out loud here.

When I made my PIN I made a complex one with upper/lower case, numbers, and special characters. I do like how it's tied to the physical machine.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win 11 Pro 23H2 22631.3374
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Self Built
    CPU
    Intel® Core™ i7-12700F
    Motherboard
    ASUS TUF GAMING Z690-PLUS WIFI
    Memory
    G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 64GB (2 x 32GB) DDR5
    Graphics Card(s)
    EVGA GeForce RTX 3050 XC Black Gaming
    Sound Card
    RealTek HD 7.1
    Monitor(s) Displays
    ASUS TUF Gaming 27" 2K HDR Gaming
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 990 Pro 1TB NVMe (Win 11)
    SK hynix P41 500GB NVMe (Win 10)
    SK hynix P41 2TB NVMe (x3)
    Crucial P3 Plus 4TB
    PSU
    Corsair RM850x Shift
    Case
    Antec Dark Phantom DP502 FLUX
    Cooling
    Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black + 7 Phantek T-30's
    Keyboard
    Logitech MK 320
    Mouse
    Razer Basilisk V3
    Internet Speed
    350Mbs
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Winows Security
    Other Info
    Windows 10 22H2 19045.4170
    On System One
  • Operating System
    Win 11 Pro 23H2 22631.3374
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Self Built
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-11700F
    Motherboard
    Asus TUF Gaming Z590 Plus WiFi
    Memory
    64 GB DDR4
    Graphics card(s)
    EVGA RTX 2060 KO Ultra Gaming
    Sound Card
    SoundBlaster X-Fi Titanium
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung F27T350
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 980 Pro 1TB
    Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB
    Samsung 870 EVO 500GB SSD
    PSU
    Corsair HX750
    Case
    Cougar MX330-G Window
    Cooling
    Hyper 212 EVO
    Internet Speed
    350Mbps
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Windows Security
For those curious about why TPM and its intent, this Jan 1, 2000, Microsoft article may shed some light: Trusted Platform Module (TPM). Simple, clear, concise.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 (Build 22631.3296)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom built
    CPU
    Intel i9-9900K
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Xtreme
    Memory
    32G (4x8) DDR4 Corsair RGB Dominator Platinum (3600Mhz)
    Graphics Card(s)
    Radeon VII
    Sound Card
    Onboard (ESS Sabre HiFi using Realtek drivers)
    Monitor(s) Displays
    NEC PA242w (24 inch)
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1200
    Hard Drives
    5 Samsung SSD drives: 2X 970 NVME (512 & 1TB), 3X EVO SATA (2X 2TB, 1X 1TB)
    PSU
    EVGA Super Nova I000 G2 (1000 watt)
    Case
    Cooler Master H500M
    Cooling
    Corsair H115i RGB Platinum
    Keyboard
    Logitech Craft
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3
    Internet Speed
    500mb Download. 11mb Upload
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge Chromium
    Antivirus
    Windows Security
    Other Info
    System used for gaming, photography, music, school.
  • Operating System
    Win 10 Pro 22H2 (build 19045.2130)
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Custom Built
    CPU
    Intel i7-7700K
    Motherboard
    Gigabyte GA-Z270X-GAMING 8
    Memory
    32G (4x8) DDR4 Corsair Dominator Platinum (3333Mhz)
    Graphics card(s)
    AMD Radeon R9 Fury
    Sound Card
    Onboard (Creative Sound Blaster certified ZxRi)
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Dell U2415 (24 inch)
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1200
    Hard Drives
    3 Samsung SSD drives: 1x 512gig 950 NVMe drive (OS drive), 1 x 512gig 850 Pro, 1x 256gig 840 Pro.
    PSU
    EVGA Super Nova 1000 P2 (1000 watt)
    Case
    Phantek Enthoo Luxe
    Cooling
    Corsair H100i
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master
    Keyboard
    Logitech MK 710
    Internet Speed
    100MB
    Browser
    Edge Chromium
    Antivirus
    Windows Security
    Other Info
    This is my backup system.

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec G156
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz
    Motherboard
    AsusTeK Prime B360M-S
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Monitor(s) Displays
    23" Speptre HDMI 75Hz
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe
    Mouse
    Logitek M185
    Keyboard
    Logitek K270
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY Photoshop/Game/tinker build
    CPU
    Intel i9 1300KS
    Motherboard
    Asus ROG Maximus Z90 Dark Hero
    Memory
    64GB (2x32) G.skill Trident Z5 RGB 6400 MHZ 32-39-39
    Graphics Card(s)
    Asus ROG Strix 4070 Ti OC
    Sound Card
    Onboard Audio, Vanatoo Transparent One; Klipsch R-12SWi Sub; Creative Pebble Pro Minimilist
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Eizo CG2730, ViewSonic VP2768
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440p x 2
    Hard Drives
    WDC SN850 1TB nvme, SK-Hynix 2 TB P41 nvme, Raid 0: 1TB 850 EVO + 1TB 860 EVO SSD. Sabrent USB-C DS-SC5B 5-bay docking station: 6TB WDC Black, 6TB Ironwolf Pro; 2x 2TB WDC Black
    PSU
    850W Seasonic Vertex PX-850
    Case
    Fractal Design North XL Mesh, Black Walnut
    Cooling
    EKWB 360 Nucleus Dark AIO w/Phanteks T30-120 fans, 1 Noctua NF-A14 Chromax case fan
    Keyboard
    Glorious GMMK TKL mechanical, lubed modded
    Mouse
    Logitech G305 wireless gaming
    Internet Speed
    380 Mb/s down, 12 Mb/s up
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender, Macrium Reflect 8 ;-)
  • Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Apple 13" Macbook Pro 2020 (m1)
    CPU
    Apple M1
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1600
    Browser
    Firefox
On my sign-in screen, if I select Sign in Options two icons appear. The left icon, a keypad, when I hover my mouse over it the pop out says PIN. The right icon for computer login the pop out says Microsoft Account Password. I know some people don't have a MS account password for whatever reason. In those cases if their PIN fails, they may or not be prompted for a password. Without a MS account password, they could be locked out. At least that's the way I see it, just thinking out loud here.

When I made my PIN I made a complex one with upper/lower case, numbers, and special characters. I do like how it's tied to the physical machine.
How does one create a pin without using their MS account password? As far as I know using a pin is part of the Windows Hello.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec G156
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz
    Motherboard
    AsusTeK Prime B360M-S
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Monitor(s) Displays
    23" Speptre HDMI 75Hz
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe
    Mouse
    Logitek M185
    Keyboard
    Logitek K270
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
How does one create a pin without using their MS account password? As far as I know using a pin is part of the Windows Hello.
You should be able to use it with some other password protected online accounts.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY Photoshop/Game/tinker build
    CPU
    Intel i9 1300KS
    Motherboard
    Asus ROG Maximus Z90 Dark Hero
    Memory
    64GB (2x32) G.skill Trident Z5 RGB 6400 MHZ 32-39-39
    Graphics Card(s)
    Asus ROG Strix 4070 Ti OC
    Sound Card
    Onboard Audio, Vanatoo Transparent One; Klipsch R-12SWi Sub; Creative Pebble Pro Minimilist
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Eizo CG2730, ViewSonic VP2768
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440p x 2
    Hard Drives
    WDC SN850 1TB nvme, SK-Hynix 2 TB P41 nvme, Raid 0: 1TB 850 EVO + 1TB 860 EVO SSD. Sabrent USB-C DS-SC5B 5-bay docking station: 6TB WDC Black, 6TB Ironwolf Pro; 2x 2TB WDC Black
    PSU
    850W Seasonic Vertex PX-850
    Case
    Fractal Design North XL Mesh, Black Walnut
    Cooling
    EKWB 360 Nucleus Dark AIO w/Phanteks T30-120 fans, 1 Noctua NF-A14 Chromax case fan
    Keyboard
    Glorious GMMK TKL mechanical, lubed modded
    Mouse
    Logitech G305 wireless gaming
    Internet Speed
    380 Mb/s down, 12 Mb/s up
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender, Macrium Reflect 8 ;-)
  • Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Apple 13" Macbook Pro 2020 (m1)
    CPU
    Apple M1
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1600
    Browser
    Firefox
I just noticed a setting in Accounts > Sign-in options. Under Additional setting is an option to only allow Windows Hello sign-in for Microsoft accounts on this device. I wonder having this option turned on is why some users don't have the option to use their password instead of the pin?
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec G156
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz
    Motherboard
    AsusTeK Prime B360M-S
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Monitor(s) Displays
    23" Speptre HDMI 75Hz
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe
    Mouse
    Logitek M185
    Keyboard
    Logitek K270
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
I just noticed a setting in Accounts > Sign-in options. Under Additional setting is an option to only allow Windows Hello sign-in for Microsoft accounts on this device. I wonder having this option turned on is why some users don't have the option to use their password instead of the pin?
Wasn't the case for Dru2.

I gotta say all of this is hokus pokus, make you feel better, we got your back in an insecure scary world marketing. It isn't any great advance in security from what I can tell. Sure when you use a password with a network account you have to send the encrypted password over the network as opposed to a local PIN. But that can't be a big deal. And that password is stored somewhere in the cloud. After all, you used to be able to be able to password protect locally, but then there had to be a backdoor in-case you forgot. IDK, maybe I am missing something but I don't think so.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY Photoshop/Game/tinker build
    CPU
    Intel i9 1300KS
    Motherboard
    Asus ROG Maximus Z90 Dark Hero
    Memory
    64GB (2x32) G.skill Trident Z5 RGB 6400 MHZ 32-39-39
    Graphics Card(s)
    Asus ROG Strix 4070 Ti OC
    Sound Card
    Onboard Audio, Vanatoo Transparent One; Klipsch R-12SWi Sub; Creative Pebble Pro Minimilist
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Eizo CG2730, ViewSonic VP2768
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440p x 2
    Hard Drives
    WDC SN850 1TB nvme, SK-Hynix 2 TB P41 nvme, Raid 0: 1TB 850 EVO + 1TB 860 EVO SSD. Sabrent USB-C DS-SC5B 5-bay docking station: 6TB WDC Black, 6TB Ironwolf Pro; 2x 2TB WDC Black
    PSU
    850W Seasonic Vertex PX-850
    Case
    Fractal Design North XL Mesh, Black Walnut
    Cooling
    EKWB 360 Nucleus Dark AIO w/Phanteks T30-120 fans, 1 Noctua NF-A14 Chromax case fan
    Keyboard
    Glorious GMMK TKL mechanical, lubed modded
    Mouse
    Logitech G305 wireless gaming
    Internet Speed
    380 Mb/s down, 12 Mb/s up
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender, Macrium Reflect 8 ;-)
  • Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Apple 13" Macbook Pro 2020 (m1)
    CPU
    Apple M1
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1600
    Browser
    Firefox
I think what @geneo is saying is that if for some reason the pin doesn't work you can still use your password
That statement is absolutely correct if everything is working correctly. BUT according to posts I have read from users across the web it doesn't always happen the way it is supposed to. They never see an option to enter a password. Whether it is an issue with Windows or from whatever reason the TPM gets hosed up (bios update, whatever), the flow of the login process is affected. If the issue in on the Windows side, maybe our backups would save us. But if the issue is on the TPM side, backups are useless.

There are enough instances reported that this should be a concern for everyone. If it works as expected ALL the time, I wouldn't be concerned. But it's a computer and as we say here in Texas, things don't always run according to Hoyle.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 22631.3296
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 7080
    CPU
    i9-10900 10 core 20 threads
    Motherboard
    DELL 0J37VM
    Memory
    32 gb
    Graphics Card(s)
    none-Intel UHD Graphics 630
    Sound Card
    Integrated Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    1tb Solidigm m.2 +256gb ssd+512 gb usb m.2 sata
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell Premium
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Internet Speed
    so slow I'm too embarrassed to tell
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro 22H2 19045.3930
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 9020
    CPU
    i7-4770
    Memory
    24 gb
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    256 gb Toshiba BG4 M.2 NVE SSB and 1 tb hdd
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell factory
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Internet Speed
    still not telling
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
Don't use a PIN or don't do a BIOS update until it is straightened out?

And report any issues to the feedback hub. It may not directly be a Microsoft issue, but Windows should not lock you out - it should give you the option to use a password.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro x64
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    DIY Photoshop/Game/tinker build
    CPU
    Intel i9 1300KS
    Motherboard
    Asus ROG Maximus Z90 Dark Hero
    Memory
    64GB (2x32) G.skill Trident Z5 RGB 6400 MHZ 32-39-39
    Graphics Card(s)
    Asus ROG Strix 4070 Ti OC
    Sound Card
    Onboard Audio, Vanatoo Transparent One; Klipsch R-12SWi Sub; Creative Pebble Pro Minimilist
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Eizo CG2730, ViewSonic VP2768
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440p x 2
    Hard Drives
    WDC SN850 1TB nvme, SK-Hynix 2 TB P41 nvme, Raid 0: 1TB 850 EVO + 1TB 860 EVO SSD. Sabrent USB-C DS-SC5B 5-bay docking station: 6TB WDC Black, 6TB Ironwolf Pro; 2x 2TB WDC Black
    PSU
    850W Seasonic Vertex PX-850
    Case
    Fractal Design North XL Mesh, Black Walnut
    Cooling
    EKWB 360 Nucleus Dark AIO w/Phanteks T30-120 fans, 1 Noctua NF-A14 Chromax case fan
    Keyboard
    Glorious GMMK TKL mechanical, lubed modded
    Mouse
    Logitech G305 wireless gaming
    Internet Speed
    380 Mb/s down, 12 Mb/s up
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender, Macrium Reflect 8 ;-)
  • Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Apple 13" Macbook Pro 2020 (m1)
    CPU
    Apple M1
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1600
    Browser
    Firefox
until it is straightened out
Straightened out by whom exactly. Microsoft? The manufacturers who release new bios? You can no longer get MS on the phone. It's been reported in feedback hub which I highly doubt they pay much attention to now that the OS is released. The thing is it's not one particular OEM bios nor does it happen to everyone who updates their bios. It's a very sporadic issue that even experienced users can't make heads or tails of.
It hasn't happened to me...YET... And I don't want it to. It just makes sense to me to be pro-active and take the TPM out of the login picture. I'll first turn off pin and use my MS account to login. Then I'll try to figure out a way to permanently stop the "set up a pin' nag. It comes back even after disabling it in Group Policy. If I can't get rid of it permanently, I'll use a local account.

I do agree with @geneo. It's hokus pokus, make you feel better, we got your back in an insecure scary world marketing

I appreciate all the feedback you guys have given on this thread.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro 23H2 22631.3296
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 7080
    CPU
    i9-10900 10 core 20 threads
    Motherboard
    DELL 0J37VM
    Memory
    32 gb
    Graphics Card(s)
    none-Intel UHD Graphics 630
    Sound Card
    Integrated Realtek
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    1tb Solidigm m.2 +256gb ssd+512 gb usb m.2 sata
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell Premium
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Internet Speed
    so slow I'm too embarrassed to tell
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
  • Operating System
    Windows 10 Pro 22H2 19045.3930
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Dell Optiplex 9020
    CPU
    i7-4770
    Memory
    24 gb
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Benq 27
    Screen Resolution
    2560x1440
    Hard Drives
    256 gb Toshiba BG4 M.2 NVE SSB and 1 tb hdd
    PSU
    500w
    Case
    MT
    Cooling
    Dell factory
    Mouse
    Logitech wireless
    Keyboard
    Logitech wired
    Internet Speed
    still not telling
    Browser
    Firefox
    Antivirus
    Defender+MWB Premium
That statement is absolutely correct if everything is working correctly. BUT according to posts I have read from users across the web it doesn't always happen the way it is supposed to. They never see an option to enter a password. Whether it is an issue with Windows or from whatever reason the TPM gets hosed up (bios update, whatever), the flow of the login process is affected. If the issue in on the Windows side, maybe our backups would save us. But if the issue is on the TPM side, backups are useless.

There are enough instances reported that this should be a concern for everyone. If it works as expected ALL the time, I wouldn't be concerned. But it's a computer and as we say here in Texas, things don't always run according to Hoyle.
I've only device I had trouble using my pin was on my Acer Spin Laptop. Sometimes I would get a pin not recognized error. I always had the option to use my MS account password.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec G156
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz
    Motherboard
    AsusTeK Prime B360M-S
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Monitor(s) Displays
    23" Speptre HDMI 75Hz
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe
    Mouse
    Logitek M185
    Keyboard
    Logitek K270
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
Don't use a PIN or don't do a BIOS update until it is straightened out?

And report any issues to the feedback hub. It may not directly be a Microsoft issue, but Windows should not lock you out - it should give you the option to use a password.
I found a setting in Accounts > Sign-in options to only use Windows Hello to sign-in for Microsoft Accounts on this device. I don't know if turning this option on prevents someone to using their password when logging in or not.
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec B746
    CPU
    Intel Core i7-10700K
    Motherboard
    ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming 4/ax
    Memory
    16GB (8GB PC4-19200 DDR4 SDRAM x2)
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 TI
    Sound Card
    Realtek Audio
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Samsung SAM0A87 Samsung SAM0D32
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1080
    Hard Drives
    NVMe WDC WDS100T2B0C-00PXH0 1TB
    Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB
    PSU
    750 Watts (62.5A)
    Case
    PowerSpec/Lian Li ATX 205
    Keyboard
    Logitech K270
    Mouse
    Logitech M185
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge and Firefox
    Antivirus
    ESET Internet Security
  • Operating System
    Windows 11 Canary Channel
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    PowerSpec G156
    CPU
    Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz
    Motherboard
    AsusTeK Prime B360M-S
    Memory
    16 MB DDR 4-2666
    Monitor(s) Displays
    23" Speptre HDMI 75Hz
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe
    Mouse
    Logitek M185
    Keyboard
    Logitek K270
    Browser
    Firefox, Edge and Edge Canary
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
Not sure what the issue would be if the drives not encrypted and you can boot to the password screen, so can go to the Recovery Environment/ Boot selection menus and also use safemode to access anything on the drive if you have no Emergency boot USB drive. So not data loss from that point, although a robust backup procedure (as stated earlier) is always best practice to do.

The TPM is a great way to prove that the Originating request is real and from who you think it should be from, Android/Apple phones have had security processors for years to handle secure banking apps etc, all based off PIN or biometrics with an account password backup.

If your not using it to encrypt drives (save your keys if you are), and running good backups, its like worrying about going out in your car and getting a flat, it might happen but its easily fixed and the contents of the car are still there, won't stop you using your car though.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Pro

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