Microsoft doubles down on its strategy to get more Windows 11 users on Microsoft Edge

unifex · Nov 28, 2021

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
You made your own point
Why delete your browser history on exit if you're not worried about tracking in the os.

What I asked was about "tracking" from outside of my computer (ISP, browser company, etc) and "beyond the steps I'm already taking".

Now, I do delete browsing history and I can explain why. A lot of companies with an online presence try get income from advertising (for some it's the main revenue source and for others just a side story). It's hard for me to believe but very often they think that my past behavior will help predict my future purchases and as a result they try to serve me "targeted ads" (be it "suggestions", "partner offers", or something else). I certainly disagree. I believe the opposite is true - if I buy a vacuum cleaner today, I will be highly unlikely to buy another one in the next few years. Same goes for most other things (apart from apples, these I eat every day :wink:

). Deleting cookies and browser history as well as separating browsing profiles (one for shopping, one for work, one for banking, etc.) serves to reduce me being annoyed by stupid ads. As a result of my actions I practically see no ads at all (apart from Amazon suggestions on Amazon site, but even that can be reduced by first searching without logging in and then going straight to the product you want in another profile).

Anything beyond ads, the "fast boy Joe" rule dominates over everything

.

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

Winuser said:
What does tracking have to do with MS trying to override our choice of the default browser we want to use? @jimbo45, MS does have a right on how we use their OS. They don't have a right to tell us what programs or apps we are allowed to use.

Just a quick question.. but when can't you make use of your browser of choice? I was able to set Firefox as the default and it's just works.

jimbo45 · Nov 28, 2021

Winuser said:
What does tracking have to do with MS trying to override our choice of the default browser we want to use? @jimbo45, MS does have a right on how we use their OS. They don't have a right to tell us what programs or apps we are allowed to use.

@Winuser I think you mis-understood -- Of course Ms don't have the right to tell you what programs you can or cannot use on your computer -- all I'm saying here that it's not Ms's responsibility to make sure any 3rd party programs continue to work with their OS -- if they don't of course then they can lose loads of money by people switching OS'es etc --

How you use a computer is your affair -- How Windows works (or doesn't work) is Ms's business - and while it would seem to be the best business model to make Windows as compatible with as many programs as possible there's no fundamental compulsion that REQUIRES them to do so.

Cheers
jimbo

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

unifex said:
What I asked was about "tracking" from outside of my computer (ISP, browser company, etc) and "beyond the steps I'm already taking".

Now, I do delete browsing history and I can explain why. A lot of companies with an online presence try get income from advertising (for some it's the main revenue source and for others just a side story). It's hard for me to believe but very often they think that my past behavior will help predict my future purchases and as a result they try to serve me "targeted ads" (be it "suggestions", "partner offers", or something else). I certainly disagree. I believe the opposite is true - if I buy a vacuum cleaner today, I will be highly unlikely to buy another one in the next few years. Same goes for most other things (apart from apples, these I eat every day ). Deleting cookies and browser history as well as separating browsing profiles (one for shopping, one for work, one for banking, etc.) serves to reduce me being annoyed by stupid ads. As a result of my actions I practically see no ads at all (apart from Amazon suggestions on Amazon site, but even that can be reduced by first searching without logging in and then going straight to the product you want in another profile).

Anything beyond ads, the "fast boy Joe" rule dominates over everything .

Apples rock!!

Wisewiz · Nov 28, 2021

Amen, Brother. Let's hear it for apples!

(And maybe let's put this thread to bed.)

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

Wisewiz said:
Amen, Brother. Let's hear it for apples!

(And maybe let's put this thread to bed.)

Apple pie,, apple cobbler.. apple strudel. My mom made a great apple strudel!! I just wish I could make Erin one.

Winuser · Nov 28, 2021

jimbo45 said:
@Winuser I think you mis-understood -- Of course Ms don't have the right to tell you what programs you can or cannot use on your computer -- all I'm saying here that it's not Ms's responsibility to make sure any 3rd party programs continue to work with their OS -- if they don't of course then they can lose loads of money by people switching OS'es etc --

How you use a computer is your affair -- How Windows works (or doesn't work) is Ms's business - and while it would seem to be the best business model to make Windows as compatible with as many programs as possible there's no fundamental compulsion that REQUIRES them to do so.

Cheers
jimbo

This is from your post. "A company has a 100% right what to do with its "Intellectual property" -- it's not saying you can't run other things on it but it might become more difficult in future." MS is trying to force users to use Edge as the default search browser and this is wrong! A user should be able to choose the default apps or programs they want to use. Today they are trying to force Edge. If successful, what app or program will be next?

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

Winuser said:
This is from your post. "A company has a 100% right what to do with its "Intellectual property" -- it's not saying you can't run other things on it but it might become more difficult in future." MS is trying to force users to use Edge as the default search browser and this is wrong! A user should be able to choose the default apps or programs they want to use. Today they are trying to force Edge. If successful, what app or program will be next?

Gee, I can set Firefox or any other browser as the default without an issue. The only time I don't get to use Firefox is when/if I use the start menu search to find things on the internet, which I don't do.

Winuser · Nov 28, 2021

BunnyJ said:
Gee, I can set Firefox or any other browser as the default without an issue. The only time I don't get to use Firefox is when/if I use the start menu search to find things on the internet, which I don't do.

The thing is that when one sets a default app or program, Windows should use that app or program and not the app or program that MS forces us to use. I don't use Windows search to do online searches but if I do I want the search to open in my default browser (firefox).

Wynona · Nov 28, 2021

jimbo45 said:
Hi folks

1. Please stop winging about browsers -- Windows is Ms's own proprietary developed software - you don't have to use it but if you do you agree to use it then you have to agree to the EULA in any case. A company has a 100% right what to do with its "Intellectual property" -- it's not saying you can't run other things on it but it might become more difficult in future. It's a bit like a composer of a song saying you can play the tune on a guitar but it might not be possible to play it on a piano - not impossible but maybe harder etc.

In any case if your browser of choice doesn't work on an OS you are currently using - use the browser on an OS that does work.

Apart from the lack of a menu bar and a bit of a half hearted way of getting to favourites (FF has both an option of a menu bar and a decent tool bar for favourites) there really isn't much difference between these browsers now -- also if you don't like google or bing as search engines choose DuckDuckgo instead.

If it's only browsers people are complaining about - well it shows Windows must be OK in other departments !!!

2. I'd rather a flexible taskbar, more customisation with system fonts etc, a vastly improved file explorer, a built in sftp secure ftp client, a proper decent RAID mechanism and the availabilty to use the ReFS (resilient file system) natively on all versions of Windows and also making it properly shareable with non Windows NAS type systems. If I want to use a start menu then please lets have a proper customiseable cascading menu (e.g as per XP) and don't have it using so much screen real estate.

Cheers
jimbo

1. Yes, Windows is a proprietorially developed operating system. Microsoft is also a near monopoly, if not a complete monopoly. After all, it has at least a 90% (more likely 95%) share of operating systems.

Since at least sometime in the 1990s through around 2014 and probably even later, Microsoft has been sued by governments and other entities for monopolistic and anti-competitive behavior. I remember vividly the demise of Netscape, created by Mark Andreeson and crew; I won't make any accusations here, but I will say that Netscape was there first and Microsoft saw that it was good . . . draw your own conclusions. I for one, know that Netscape was much better than the browser created by Microsoft post Netscape's entry on the scene . . . I was there at the beginning . . . TIA (The Internet Adapter) and all.

In a March 2004 decision, the EU courts fined Microsoft for that monopolistic behavior. This doesn't exactly tell me Microsoft has the right to do what it wants to with respect to my right to run the default software I choose.

<quote>"Dominant companies have a special responsibility to ensure that the way they do business doesn't prevent competition ... and does not harm consumers and innovation," EU Competition Commissioner Mario Monti said. "Today's decision restores the conditions for fair competition in the markets concerned and establishes clear principles for the future conduct of a company with such a strong dominant position."</quote>

Source: Microsoft Slapped with Biggest Fine in EU History | DW | 24.03.2004

Why then, is Microsoft still attempting to monopolize the Internet via its Edge browser; didn't they learn their lesson? Didn't anyone ever tell Microsoft the Internet doesn't belong to Microsoft?

2. You say, "A company has a 100% right what to do with its "Intellectual property". Then you go on to say, "I'd rather a flexible taskbar, more customisation with system fonts etc, a vastly improved file explorer, a built in sftp secure ftp client, a proper decent RAID mechanism and the availabilty to use the ReFS (resilient file system) natively on all versions of Windows and also making it properly shareable with non Windows NAS type systems. If I want to use a start menu then please lets have a proper customiseable cascading menu (e.g as per XP) and don't have it using so much screen real estate."

So, if what you say is true, Microsoft has the right to do what it will with Windows . . . Including all the things you want too. No matter that the Taskbar has been severely disabled. And there are numerous complaints about File Explorer. Seems to me the individual consumer (that's us, folks) is no longer important to Microsoft.

What's next? Those who cannot afford a subscription to Microsoft 365 will no longer be able to run Open Office or Libre Office? Those who choose to run Zoom instead of Teams or Skype will no longer have the ability to meet online? And the list can and probably will go on!

"A company has a 100% right what to do with its "Intellectual property".

Wynona · Nov 28, 2021

BunnyJ said:
Gee, I can set Firefox or any other browser as the default without an issue. The only time I don't get to use Firefox is when/if I use the start menu search to find things on the internet, which I don't do.

And why should I have to open Firefox and then look for what I want when the search bar is right there and eliminates two or three strokes. Also, if I'm looking for an app I downloaded to my computer, I'm just as likely to be taken to the web via Edge . . .

Microsoft should respect my choice of default programs; I should not have to work around Microsoft!

unifex · Nov 28, 2021

Of course an individual consumer, one out of a couple of billions (and not a paying customer at that) is not important for Microsoft, I don't understand why this simple fact surprises and/or upsets people. Similarly, it is rather naive to think that when the EU sued Microsoft they did it for us, consumers. Just think about whether we, consumers, turned out better off after that decision. I don't know about you, but I didn't notice any change in my life whatsoever.

Once again, I don't see any problem using any third-party program on my Windows computer. Suffices to say, I have never (not even once) used Microsoft Edge. I don't subscribe to anything 365 and I don't plan on it. I don't feel any pressure from Microsoft to use any of its offerings. So I'm not so sure what the fuss is all about (I don't care what the default apps are, I don't use them and I don't care if they exist).

tinmar49 · Nov 28, 2021

Adding a bit to Winona's mention of the 2004 EU ruling, here in the UK and probably the whole of Europe, when you loaded a copy of whatever Windows was used at the time,you got a list of browsers, including Internet Explorer to choose as your prefered internet connection. I bet Microsoft were not happy having to include those options.

unifex · Nov 28, 2021

tinmar49 said:
Adding a bit to Winona's mention of the 2004 EU ruling, here in the UK and probably the whole of Europe, when you loaded a copy of whatever Windows was used at the time,you got a list of browsers, including Internet Explorer to choose as your prefered internet connection. I bet Microsoft were not happy having to include those options.

That's not entirely true - there was an OS variant (I forgot, either "E" or "N") that did that, but you did not have to use that variant. I never did, so I never saw that screen. Never used Internet Explorer either. Never occurred to me to ask the EU (or Microsoft for that matter) which browser I'm supposed to use.

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

Wynona said:
And why should I have to open Firefox and then look for what I want when the search bar is right there and eliminates two or three strokes. Also, if I'm looking for an app I downloaded to my computer, I'm just as likely to be taken to the web via Edge . . .

Microsoft should respect my choice of default programs; I should not have to work around Microsoft!

Because it's the browser you want to use?

Wynona · Nov 28, 2021

BunnyJ said:
Because it's the browser you want to use?

Nope! Because it's supposed to be my default browser, but Microsoft doesn't allow me that choice. So, instead of Firefox automatically doing my browsing, I have to jump through hoops.

BunnyJ · Nov 28, 2021

Wynona said:
Nope! Because it's supposed to be my default browser, but Microsoft doesn't allow me that choice. So, instead of Firefox automatically doing my browsing, I have to jump through hoops.

Clicking on the icon to start up Firefox is jumping through hoops? I can understand some of the frustration but that's a bit much.

jimbo45 · Nov 29, 2021

Hi there
If you design a snipers rifle with a top of the range scope etc etc - don't expect it to be any good at a " Fast Clay Pidgeon shoot" competition. The Rifle manufacturer is not saying you can't try and use it for that purpose but you as the user can't really make the manufacturer change the specs. Same with a standard car if you want it to float and be useable in a deep river.

The manufacturer of a product has 100% right to design it in any way they deem fit (within legal parameters of course).

Of course with something that has millions of users world wide they would be imbeciles for not taking those users views into account - but there isn't any legal compulsion to do so. - Has (Cr)Apple opened up its hardware to competing suppliers . I think their eco system is still pretty restrictive -- you aren't even allowed to run the Apple OS as a VM on Windows or Linux -- at least Windows can run as a VM on any OS - including Apple (via Parallels etc).

Anyway this discussion is a bit pointless as all Ms really want to do (apart from making a decent return for its shareholders) - like any functioning commercial enterprise also wants to do is to make its OS as safe as possible in the ever increasing spate of "Global Cyber Warfare" so the OS is safe to use for businesses and home users alike.

Not sure what the problem is with FF on latest version of W11 -- works OK on my machine(s) and no problem in setting it as default for all the htm/html type of things.

As far as EU Vs Ms, and Ms Vs IBM - these are just simply lawyers fest's that put a load more money into lawyers pockests plus court officials and employees pockets -- it didn't benefit the "man in the Street" one tiny Eurocent !!!! These rediculous court cases aren't even good publicity as it invariably costs the end consumer more.

Sometimes breaking up large suppliers doesn't work at all to the consumers advantage -- look at Sports providers in the the UK for example where people now have to pay Amazon, BT, and SKY if they want to watch Premier league football -- at a cost far higher than the original single Sky provider. Same with Movie / TV / other video content. The amount of different providers out there means a load of extra subscriptions if you want to access a lot of content these days instead of a manageable 2 or 3.

Cheers
jimbo

f14tomcat · Nov 29, 2021

Wow! I didn't know there were so many problems using Firefox with Windows 11. I guess my version of both doesn't know there are snakes in the attic.

Fabler2 · Nov 29, 2021

As far as EU Vs Ms, and Ms Vs IBM - these are just simply lawyers fest's that put a load more money into lawyers pockests plus court officials and employees pockets -- it didn't benefit the "man in the Street" one tiny Eurocent !!!! These rediculous court cases aren't even good publicity as it invariably costs the end consumer more.

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