Unexpected System Shutdown (crash) - USB Related?


launchd

New member
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Windows 11
I want to start out by saying that I've raised this issue with both Microsoft and Lenovo support channels, both of which lead to unresolved outcomes (one blaming the other). I'm posting here as a last ditch effort with the hope that you all will be able to help me find the root cause and finally resolve this.

I'm attempting to solve an issue that I'm facing in my Windows environment. That issue being intermittent hard crashing (black screen, reboot) occurring multiple times a day. The hardware (laptop) being leveraged by the user population is consistent across the board. We are using the Lenovo ThinkPad E15 Gen 3 (AMD Ryzen) laptops running Windows 11 Pro. We are also using the following docking stations:

Plugable UD-6950H
ThinkPad Hybrid USB-C with USB-A Dock (40AF)
ThinkPad Universal USB-C Smart Dock (40B2)

I first encountered the issue after providing a new user with a laptop that I took out of the box, formatted, installed Windows 11 22H2 on (built USB install using Rufus/current Windows ISO from Microsoft) and ran through AutoPilot (MEM used for management). This was the first laptop I had done this with. Prior to this net new user, our users (call them legacy users) were given laptops with the OEM/factory Lenovo image running Windows 10. We upgraded this user group to Windows 11 21H2 without issue. They were all (legacy and net new users) using Plugable UD-6950H docks.

During my attempts to resolve the issue I started seeing with all the net new users receiving cleanly imaged laptops, I begun moving our legacy users to Windows 11 22H2. However, this update immediately caused crashing to begin with these legacy users. I resolved this issue by rolling back this feature update and freezing them on the prior (21H2) one. This gave me the idea that the problem was being caused by something in the Windows 11 22H2 version. I then switched to installing Windows 11 21H2 cleanly. Unable to roll back to 21H2 on the net new user machines (as they were cleanly imaged with 22H2 from the start), I was forced to send replacements. These replacement laptops had Windows 11 21H2 (Rufus/Windows ISO from Microsoft) installed cleanly. Before long, I was met with these users reporting the same crashing issue occurring on their replacement machines. So now I had Lenovo factory image machines on Win11 21H2 with no issues, cleanly imaged machines on Win11 21H2 crashing and cleanly imaged machines on Win11 22H2 crashing. Event Viewer was less than helpful as I was only able to locate two events that I deemed associated:

(After crash)
Source: Kernel-Power
Event ID: 41
The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.

(After crash)
Source: EventLog
Event ID: 6008
The previous system shutdown at X:XX:XX PM on ‎X/‎X/‎XXXX was unexpected.

I started to think that the issue was related to the docking station and/or bad drivers being installed by Windows. So, to test this theory, I did two things. I asked a user experiencing daily crashing to unplug from their dock and use the laptop standalone. I also built a Windows 11 21H2 install with all of the latest drivers for our laptop model downloaded directly from Lenovo's support site. I wiped a brand new computer, installed Windows 11 using the updated install (with Lenovo model specific drivers baked in), kept it offline and booted it after install. I then compared the drivers/version numbers of my offline, newly imaged machine against a machine that was crashing constantly. The outcome? The drivers and their versions were identical between the two machines. In other words, Windows installed the correct and most up-to-date drivers for our Lenovo model on the machines that were crashing. However, going back to the user who stopped using their dock, they were no longer crashing. A week had gone by without a single crash and this was a user that was crashing multiple times a day. Once this user begun using their dock again? Crashing daily. Clearly the dock was a part of the problem, but why were others (legacy users, Lenovo factory image Windows 10 upgrade to Windows 11 21H2) using this same dock without a problem? Either way I figured (encouraged by Lenovo support) junk the Plugable dock and get a Lenovo dock. So I started deploying the ThinkPad Hybrid USB-C with USB-A Dock (40AF) to users that were crashing. After receiving them, installing the Lenovo dock specific drivers and using them for a day, the reports of crashing continued. No different than the reports of crashing that occurred with the Plugable docks. One user, who I was using to test things with (unplug from your dock user), I sent a ThinkPad Universal USB-C Smart Dock (40B2). Surprisingly, this user was successfully using this dock without crashing for days. This lead me to believe that USB-A was the problem since a USB-C only dock resolved the problem. Soon after thinking this, the user with the USB-C only dock who hadn't crashed for a week at this point said they'd crashed. DAMN IT... and so I began talking to them. After a week of not crashing I asked, did you do anything differently this week? Their response? A bunch of things... but one thing in particular stuck out - they plugged their wireless headset dongle into a USB-A port on their laptop. After asking the user to remove the dongle, lo and behold, crashing stopped again. So here I am, with a problem that is seemingly pointing to the USB-A ports on our laptops but, only for some... running Windows 11 (21H2 or 22H2) that was cleanly installed vs. OEM/factory image upgraded. I'm terrified to upgrade any legacy machines, I'm starting to replace all of our docks with the USB-C only Lenovo version and I'm beginning to tell our users to not use their USB-A ports but this isn't a solution, this is a bandaid fix. I guess I should compare the drivers on the legacy machines with the drivers on the cleanly installed machines to see what is different as a next step but, I'm wondering if anyone can definitively point to anything with the logs (attached) from my machine (running Windows 11 22H2 clean install) that is also crashing (using Plugable dock) before I do that.
 
Windows Build/Version
Windows 11 Pro 22H2 22621.1105

Attachments

  • HRXW-PF3FZ250-(2023-02-23_14-11-21).zip
    668.6 KB · Views: 2

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
I'm experiencing the same crash with the Gen3 E15 and Hybdrid dock (40af). It seems as this is happening as soon as the charging threshold is reached but I'm not sure. I will try to unplug my USB-A dongle to see if that helps for now. Are you planning to context Lenovo suppport about this?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
I'm experiencing the same crash with the Gen3 E15 and Hybdrid dock (40af). It seems as this is happening as soon as the charging threshold is reached but I'm not sure. I will try to unplug my USB-A dongle to see if that helps for now. Are you planning to context Lenovo suppport about this?
I've already contacted Lenovo and unfortunately, they haven't been helpful.

I tried to induce a crash by charging the battery of a laptop (that is known to crash) to 100% while connected to a USB-A dock and I crashed before reaching 100% (crashed at 96%). I'm going to re-test on a different laptop that is also known to crash to see if similar behavior is experienced (crashing near or at the battery's maximum charge capacity)
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
I've already contacted Lenovo and unfortunately, they haven't been helpful.

I tried to induce a crash by charging the battery of a laptop (that is known to crash) to 100% while connected to a USB-A dock and I crashed before reaching 100% (crashed at 96%). I'm going to re-test on a different laptop that is also known to crash to see if similar behavior is experienced (crashing near or at the battery's maximum charge capacity)

The laptop that crashed at 96% has now also crashed at 87% after I unplugged it from the charger and allowed the battery to drain a bit. I don't think the crashing is related to charging/reaching maximum battery capacity.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
Removing the USB-A Keyboard dongle from the laptop hasn't improved the situation for me. I have the dongle plugged into my dock though.

Today my laptop crashed when plugged into the dock and started a screensharing session via Teams with a colleague.

Too bad Lenovo isn't looking into this, if you read the changelog for the dock firmware then this line stood out to me:

[V0.2.61] 2019/06/17
1. Avoid System Power pin fault toggle while receive fast S4/S5 System Stage VDM from Host.

Could this be related? I hoped an update would help to fix it after reading this, but alas.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
Removing the USB-A Keyboard dongle from the laptop hasn't improved the situation for me. I have the dongle plugged into my dock though.

Today my laptop crashed when plugged into the dock and started a screensharing session via Teams with a colleague.

Too bad Lenovo isn't looking into this, if you read the changelog for the dock firmware then this line stood out to me:

[V0.2.61] 2019/06/17
1. Avoid System Power pin fault toggle while receive fast S4/S5 System Stage VDM from Host.

Could this be related? I hoped an update would help to fix it after reading this, but alas.

In my situation, to prevent crashing from occurring, all USB-A ports (two in total) on the laptop must go unused. I believe that because you are using the ThinkPad Hybrid USB-C with USB-A Dock (40AF), you are still leveraging one of the native USB-A ports on your laptop (to connect this dock). Is this correct?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
In my situation, to prevent crashing from occurring, all USB-A ports (two in total) on the laptop must go unused. I believe that because you are using the ThinkPad Hybrid USB-C with USB-A Dock (40AF), you are still leveraging one of the native USB-A ports on your laptop (to connect this dock). Is this correct?

I am using the USB-C connection to charge and use an HDMI monitor on the dock. I have one USB-dongle in the dock for my mouse and keyboard, all the USB-A ports are free on my laptop. Crashing still occurs with the USB ports free on the laptop.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
I am having a similar problem with a new Acer C27. At first I thought it was related to the external DVD drive on the USB-C port, because after a crash the machine would sometimes refuse to reboot unless the drive was disconnected. I returned that drive and bought a different one, but the crashes continued, even becoming more frequent although I had not changed anything else.
A couple of days ago I disconnected all the USB devices (DVD, battery backup, external hard drive, printer) except the keyboard/mouse dongle. I then reconnected them without the very old USB hub that I had been using. So far no crashes, so the hub is suspect.
Regardless, it remains a mystery why any USB device can cause a type 41 system crash. Event viewer shows a couple of type 41 events but not the most recent ones.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Acer Aspire C27 27" All-in-One
    CPU
    12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1235U 2.50 GHz
    Memory
    8GB
Following up.
Bought a new powered USB 3 hub so that I would have a spare port for my camera. No crashes so far, so the old hub is definitely suspect. I have had that hub for years and it worked fine on Windows 10. I think it even dates back to Windows 7. Windows 11 seem to be more fussy about its USB devices. Why?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Acer Aspire C27 27" All-in-One
    CPU
    12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1235U 2.50 GHz
    Memory
    8GB
I have the same (or similar problem) - originally on and HP new mini tower i5/16/512 where the system stuck on mouse with USB's inoperative. In spite of series of efforts by HP techies they could not solve so system went back for refund.
Replaced by similar Dell system which now does the same thing.
Disconnected sequentially Tecknet USB mouse( initially 2017 then new) , Logitech KB/mouse, headphones ,(Plantronics remote) and still the system crashes after some hours.
At a loss to find anything else USB to disconnect.
So starting to suspect the Win11 drivers.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    win11 22h2 OS build22621.2715
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    HP and Dell
    CPU
    i5-13400 2.50 GHz
    Motherboard
    Dell
    Memory
    16
    Monitor(s) Displays
    Philips 35inch
    Hard Drives
    512 SSd
    Case
    Mini tower
Hello @peteyates and welcome to the forum!

We discourage hijacking other's threads and resurrecting necro threads too. If you are getting crashes and/or BSODs please start your own thread, you can link back to this one of you think it relevant. Please also follow the BSOD Posting Instructions (even if it's not BSODing).
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows

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