Would you buy from the first batch of Windows 11 computers?

Haydon said:

Sure, alpha, beta, and even early batches right after RTM can have early bugs. That's the whole point of this thread, balancing early bugs against early benefits.

I think there is a misconception about Windows 11 security, it is not based on software, it is based on firmware or better still, on hardware. Of course, this is after Windows 11 RTM, or better still, after the early bugs have been ironed out.

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Uh, no. This is not exclusive to Windows 11. I had the same security in Windows 10 - TPM, secure boot, etc. And it is not all based on firmware (certainly not hardware - even TPM modules are firmware). Windows 10 and 11 security is Windows OS software.

Firmware is also software, just low level software. What makes the TPM different is it is independent of the OS software and processor. And a BTW, the chipset based firmware, PTT in for example, runs in it's own little OS in the chipset - Intel CSME (FKA Intel Management Engine) which has its own microkernel OS, which is a little scary.

There is nothing new here so far, and I am guessing there won't be by RTM, seeing as it is supposedly not that far off.

NavyLCDR said:

Which is nothing new. Windows 10 has that security feature too. Windows 10 will use TPM just as much as Windows 11 does. The only difference is that Windows 11 setup uses file appraiserres.dll to check for TPM 2.0. The appraiserres.dll file included with Windows 10 does not.

@Haydon, read this:

Trusted Platform Module Technology Overview - Windows Security

Learn about the Trusted Platform Module (TPM) and how Windows uses it for access control and authentication.

docs.microsoft.com

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Well, for one thing, Windows 10 can use TPM 1.2 or TPM 2.0 but Windows 11 must use TPM 2.0. There is certainly a whole slew of 'must use TPM 2.0' related things in the pipeline. I am not saying that Windows 10 is not secure, it is, but Windows 11 will be more secure (all Windows versions are more secure than their predecessors, Windows 12 will be more secure than Windows 11)

To clarify, this thread is about buying from the first batch of Windows 11 computers, as the title of the thread says. It is not about Windows 11 Insiders nor about running Windows 11 alpha or beta on Windows 10 computers that don't meet Windows 11 requirements nor about upgrading Windows 10 computers to Windows 11.

And of course, Windows 10 will be fully supported until October 2025. You still have 4+ years of good luck :)

Edit: I am undecided, but if I decide not to buy from the first batch of Windows 11 computers, then I may join you, although probably not for 4+ years :)

Winuser said:

I use to go to the local computer shows. I would spec out what I wanted and they would build it while I waited. Now the closest is in Laurel Maryland. What I do now is buy the custom built desktops from Micro Center.

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Have you ever looked at Puget systems? They are pretty good, I think better than Microcenter - especially in choice of components. There are a few others as well. If you can spec it out any reason not to DIY? It is kind of fun, but I guess not for everyone.

geneo said:

Uh, no. This is not exclusive to Windows 11. I had the same security in Windows 10 - TPM, secure boot, etc. And it is not all based on firmware (certainly not hardware - even TPM modules are firmware). Windows 10 and 11 security is Windows OS software.

Firmware is also software, just low level software. What makes the TPM different is it is independent of the OS software and processor. And a BTW, the chipset based firmware, PTT in for example, runs in it's own little OS in the chipset - Intel CSME (FKA Intel Management Engine) which has its own microkernel OS, which is a little scary.

There is nothing new here so far, and I am guessing there won't be by RTM, seeing as it is supposedly not that far off.

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Well, arguing like that makes Windows 3.1 the same as Windows 10, they are both Windows

Haydon said:

Well, arguing like that makes Windows 3.1 the same as Windows 10, they are both Windows

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What??? That's absurd. How did you draw that conclusion?

Windows 11 security right now is the same as Windows 10. Neither are the same as Windows 3.1 which back then had practically nothing as it wasn't as necessary.

geneo said:

Windows 11 security right now

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This thread is not about right now, see thread title and post #82 :)

Haydon said:

Well, for one thing, Windows 10 can use TPM 1.2 or TPM 2.0 but Windows 11 must use TPM 2.0.

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That is not true at all. As I explained earlier, Windows 11 the operating system does not require TPM 2.0 or any TPM at all. Only the normal setup routine does. There are many ways to install Windows 11 on systems that have no TPM at all, and Windows 11 runs just fine on those systems. For example:

geneo said:

Have you ever looked at Puget systems? They are pretty good, I think better than Microcenter - especially in choice of components. There are a few others as well. If you can spec it out any reason not to DIY? It is kind of fun, but I guess not for everyone.

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I build my own systems, but will say I've heard good things about Puget System builds. I know of them for their benchmarks on Photoshop. You can download the benchmark tool but it's a 2.5 gig file, and takes about 30 minutes for the tests to complete. Downloaded and ran tests.

Anyway if they're running benchmarks on Photoshop they're serious about their systems. Though I don't think they're cheap.

NavyLCDR said:

That is not true at all. As I explained earlier, Windows 11 the operating system does not require TPM 2.0 or any TPM at all. Only the normal setup routine does. There are many ways to install Windows 11 on systems that have no TPM at all, and Windows 11 runs just fine on those systems. For example:

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Navy, you and I talk past each other. You talk about the present. I talk about the first batch of Windows 11 computers that will presumably be on sale this yearend holiday season, see thread title, my post #1 and my post #82, second paragraph.

There WILL be a security improvement in Windows 11 that will develop naturally even further.

Haydon said:

Navy, you and I talk past each other. You talk about the present. I talk about the first batch of Windows 11 computers that will presumably be on sale this yearend holiday season, see thread title and my post #1.

There WILL be a security improvement in Windows 11 that will develop naturally even further.

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Since you are so good at predicting the future, can you tell me the next winning Power Ball lottery numbers, please? You have absolutely no idea what Windows 11 will require in the future. Unless maybe you are a secret Microsoft employee sharing inside confidential trade secret information with us, which I highly doubt.

My opinion is that when Windows 11 goes RTM it will just be Windows 10 with a facelift, just like it is in it's current state. And my prediction is based upon just as much knowledge of the future of Windows 11 as your prediction is.

NavyLCDR said:

Since you are so good at predicting the future, can you tell me the next winning Power Ball lottery numbers, please? You have absolutely no idea what Windows 11 will require in the future. Unless maybe you are a secret Microsoft employee sharing inside confidential trade secret information with us, which I highly doubt.

My opinion is that when Windows 11 goes RTM it will just be Windows 10 with a facelift, just like it is in it's current state. And my prediction is based upon just as much knowledge of the future of Windows 11 as your prediction is.

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Hey Navy, cool down! Unfortunately, I am not a fortune teller, but the TPM 2.0 requirement for Windows 11 is a Microsoft specification, see Windows 11 Specifications - Microsoft The TPM 2.0 requirement caused a big hoopla, here and elsewhere, so I thought you knew.

Peace

Haydon said:

Hey Navy, cool down! Unfortunately, I am not a fortune teller, but the TPM 2.0 requirement for Windows 11 is a Microsoft specification, see Windows 11 Specifications - Microsoft The TPM 2.0 requirement caused a big hoopla, here and elsewhere, so I thought you knew.

Peace

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Well, we will just have to wait and see if Microsoft incorporates the TPM 2.0 requirement into the actual OS itself, or just into appraiserres.dll called by setup.exe when Windows 11 is being installed in the routine manner. Indications are that Microsoft will not incorporate the TPM 2.0 requirement into the Windows 11 OS itself:

If, as you say, Windows 11 MUST use TPM 2.0, then I guess Microsoft will have to release a special version of Windows 11 for these custom systems; but as of right now, the TPM 2.0 requirement is not in the OS itself, only in the setup routine.

Only time will tell.

Haydon said:

This thread is not about right now, see thread title and post #82 :)

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Now your just arguing to argue. I said i11 security isn't going to change much if any by RTM. Windows 10 does the same as 11. Doesn't matter whether Windows 10 or 11 requires TPM 2.0 or not, if you want TPM 2.0 and secure boot you can do that in Windows 10. All you have to do is enable it in the BIOS.

And btw, this thread is aboutwhether or not to buy fromthe first lot of computers with Windows 11, which has nothing to do with security and TPM this if you want to nitpick.

NavyLCDR said:

If, as you say, Windows 11 MUST use TPM 2.0, then I guess Microsoft will have to release a special version of Windows 11 for these custom systems; but as of right now, the TPM 2.0 requirement is not in the OS itself, only in the setup routine.

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It is the other way around, the special versions of Windows 11 are the present Insider versions that can be installed on systems that don't satisfy the system requirements on that MS webpage. The RTM version will require systems that satisfy the system requirements on that MS webpage (including the TPM 2.0 requirement) or it won't install.

Unless MS changes the system requirements on that webpage. But that is unlikely. The info on that MS webpage can easily take a million manhours to generate, tied to a 10-year strategic plan, tied to business alliances, and what not.

Microsoft has stated they will have exceptions and will ship a special Windows 11 image without the TPM requirement for special purpose commercial systems.



What they do in the insider program with Windows 11 is neither here nor there - they don't need the TPM to test out the new OS, so they won;t require it.

geneo said:

Now your just arguing to argue. I said i11 security isn't going to change much if any by RTM. Windows 10 does the same as 11. Doesn't matter whether Windows 10 or 11 requires TPM 2.0 or not, if you want TPM 2.0 and secure boot you can do that in Windows 10. All you have to do is enable it in the BIOS.

And btw, this thread is aboutwhether or not to buy fromthe first lot of computers with Windows 11, which has nothing to do with security and TPM this if you want to nitpick.

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OK, so you argue that Windows 11 will not be more secure than Windows 10, which is against the natural flow of technological development, but which is what you see in the short term. And I argue that Windows 11 will be more secure than Windows 10, which is in accord with the natural flow of technological development. So we will have to agree to disagree.

Improved security is on-topic as it is an incentive for me to buy from the first batch, as I said in my post #1 (although the improved security is bogus in your view, I understand) There are disincentives too.

geneo said:

Microsoft has stated they will have exceptions and will ship a special Windows 11 image without the TPM requirement for special purpose commercial systems.

Windows 11 to Ship Without TPM Requirement for 'Special Purpose' Systems

Not all Windows 11 installs are created equal.

www.tomshardware.com

What they do in the insider program with Windows 11 is neither here nor there - they don't need the TPM to test out the new OS, so they won;t require it.

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> Microsoft has stated they will have exceptions and will ship a special Windows 11 image without the TPM requirement for special purpose commercial systems.

Yeah, sure, MS will do just about anything for $$. MS makes big $$ to support Windows 7 and companies pay for it because upgrading from Windows 7 cost them more $$$

> What they do in the insider program with Windows 11 is neither here nor there - they don't need the TPM to test out the new OS, so they won;t require it.

Yeah, sure, that's why they do it with the Insider versions. Does not change the fact that the RTM version will most likely follow the stated system requirements.

Wow, the seemingly simple question of whether anyone is planning to buy a new machine when they first come with Windows 11 pre-installed (which may or may not come this coming holiday season) has escalated to a "who is better at predicting the future" contest. Since nobody (as far as I know) can predict the future, we can only make some plans and possibly stick to them. My buying decisions are never based on when and whether something appears on the market, so I see no special meaning in buying the "first batch" of Windows 11 machines. I'll buy a new laptop when I need one and will use whatever Windows that will come with it, nothing more, nothing less. Desktops I build myself.

I also don't understand these constant battles about TPM. On this machine that I built 7 months ago, the motherboard is apparently capable of it. I never had it turned on though. before installing Windows 11 I did, since I read this might be important, but frankly I saw nothing of it. Windows 10 on the same machine is working in exactly the same way as before I turned this on, nothing at all changed as far as I can see. So what's the big deal?

Now, I realize that older systems might not support TPM. So what? You won't be able to install Windows 11 on an old system? Why would you want that? Personally, I never do that, I never upgrade OSs, especially on laptops (my self-built desktops are always "fluid" - I add and replace parts all the time, so adding a new drive with a new OS does not seem the same as "upgrading"). To be very honest, none of the OS changes from Windows 2K to Windows 10 (and now 11) has changed anything in the way I work and use my PC. Of course it's great to update the look and feel of the GUI every now and then, but ultimately the OS does not matter, at least not for my work.

unifex said:

I also don't understand these constant battles about TPM. On this machine that I built 7 months ago, the motherboard is apparently capable of it. I never had it turned on though. before installing Windows 11 I did, since I read this might be important, but frankly I saw nothing of it. Windows 10 on the same machine is working in exactly the same way as before I turned this on, nothing at all changed as far as I can see. So what's the big deal?

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Most if not all of the latest generation motherboards will have the TPM function built into the System ChipSet, the header facility to add the TPM is only really there to cater for future updates.

I don't think the presence of the TPM is yet of concern, but it's "proposed" that it will be when Windows 11 is finally released