Thoughts on Windows 11

NICK ADSL UK said:

don't forget if you want windows 11 like 10 with the old start menu back then just get hold of start menu x

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I've not found a single application that will reinstate the Start Menu exactly the way it was in W10!

Cbleman said:

Thank you for reminding us. Another third party workaround for a Win 11 deficit. I know you can't please everyone, but when so many people are asking for the same thing, I would hope that MS would give it some consideration. Who knows. The updates continue to address issues. MS is still working out those issues. Even though this forum is unofficial, perhaps someone in MS will address some of the issues discussed here. I'm pretty sure someone in the MS chain keeps an eye on it. Even if it's just leisure reading.

"If Windows was designed correctly to begin with, we wouldn't need so many third party apps and plug ins slowing it down"
(I remember this quote from another forum. Unfortunately I can't find it to give the person credit.)

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The problem is defining what 'correct' is? To me the current way 11 is set up is correct and to others it's not. With the vast number of users it's going to be impossible to get it right/correct for the majority of users. So.. MS defaults to it's biggest customer base.. business and gives them what they want and need.

Does that leave us out? Yes.. it does.. but I just make do. The upgrade to 11 is free and I really have nothing major to complain about.

BunnyJ said:

They listened to business users.. IE the ones who pay the bills for MS. Business's don't want their employees changing things.. they want it one way to make the life of their IT support easier.. well as easy as possible and this is what they wanted.

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I am with you bunny J .To each his own, but call me crazy I love windows Eleven

jerrypc1 said:

I am with you bunny J .To each his own, but call me crazy I love windows Eleven

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Love.. not quite but I really like it and I think there are things that can be improved upon.. make the taskbar movable etc. I would like to group the icon/apps on the start menu like you can in 10.. separate the icons by page. One for say,, programming and one for games.

Cbleman said:

Thank you for reminding us. Another third party workaround for a Win 11 deficit. I know you can't please everyone, but when so many people are asking for the same thing, I would hope that MS would give it some consideration. Who knows. The updates continue to address issues. MS is still working out those issues. Even though this forum is unofficial, perhaps someone in MS will address some of the issues discussed here. I'm pretty sure someone in the MS chain keeps an eye on it. Even if it's just leisure reading.

"If Windows was designed correctly to begin with, we wouldn't need so many third party apps and plug ins slowing it down"
(I remember this quote from another forum. Unfortunately I can't find it to give the person credit.)

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"Designed correctly" In who's opinion? Mine? Yours? . They're never gonna please everyone. Its impossible. I personally like it. Few little things that are meh, But they've made the changes and me going on about it isn't gonna change it. Ive used it as a daily driver on my only PC since the first DEV build. Here i am still alive to tell the tale and my pc hasn't blown up. Been invaded by pirates or hacked to death.
Its more stable than people give it credit for.

Believe it or not, Microsoft is capable of doing stupid things, just like you and me!
After all, they too are a part of the fallible human race!

I like Win 11 and would not change it with a 3rd party add on, especially to go back to the look of a previous version. I like everything in the middle as I don't have to avert my eyes to the left but look straight ahead from where I am sitting so I'll keep the Task bar icons centered and on the bottom even if a later build allows changing those things. Nothing is perfect but where grouping is concerned I have on Start under Pinned in the first row utilities, in the next row Office apps, and the next row miscellaneous like Calculator, Calendar, etc. so you can group apps in other ways.

What I would like to see Microsoft do is get the interface aesthetics consistent so for instance when you are in System>Sound and click More Sound Settings the interface remains the same rather than bringing up an old style Windows dialog for the other sound settings. Get the new look all across the board but of course without losing functionality, the latter being something I fear could happen.

Edwin said:

Believe it or not, Microsoft is capable of doing stupid things, just like you and me!
After all, they too are a part of the fallible human race!

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True that! And hence the last sentence in my previous post.

I didn't get the whole Centered Menu thing, probably because I'm accustomed to slamming my cursor down hard into the bottom left hand corner, without looking, to open the Start Menu...,
... muscle memory, man! Can't change it now!

I know where you're coming from. Out of habit I still find myself starting to move the cursor to the left for Start, and to the right corner for Settings.

Jeff, when you say "movable" do you mean to the left, right, or top of the screen ?

AddRAM said:

Jeff, when you say "movable" do you mean to the left, right, or top of the screen ?

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Yes.. It would be nice to move it to any side of the monitor.. top, bottom right or left.

OK, So you mean the entire taskbar and not just the icons. I`ve tried that before but prefer it at the bottom.

Windows 11 is different but but once you get it and get used to it its pretty sweet. I have it on both my computers now.

I'm done with it on my test machine, which is unsupported. I just wanted to see if the hack to install it on that machine worked and to check it out before upgrading my 1 year old laptop. I recently updated my 1 year old laptop to Windows 11, and so far so good. Also have a HP desktop, which is unsupported and don't plan to put 11 on it.

Devlin1888 said:

"Designed correctly" In who's opinion? Mine? Yours?

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That's not the issue. Design is a language with a series of practices. You're allowed to attempt to introduce new ideas -- but it will work best if it follows the language and builds upon the practices.

Let me offer a recent 'improvement' that speaks volumes.

Once upon a time there was THIS --



Since I was new to Windows with 10 I don't know how long this version was kicking around. Basic design practices say, hey, you know what? That's kinda big, long, and messy. And the font is a little small in some situations. (I never understood why OPEN WITH wasn't directly under OPEN.)

So the WinPeeps redesigned and offered --



(I only noticed with THIS post that OPEN WITH is friendly with OPEN again. Yay!)

The first thing you notice is how much shorter (fewer options) the second list appears to have. But, if you look closer, you see that top row also includes choices as icons instead of words.

And so where there were 21 choices in the first design the new design appears to only offer 9 at a quick glance but actually offers 14 choices. Once you get used to this (and it does take time) it's easier to use because, really, it's a list of 5 icon choices and 9 list choices. And it's easier to read.

These design practices are solid. They adhere to similar successful designs elsewhere, where cars (for instance) have symbols for air conditioning modes but words for other items.

Now, get this. Here are the design flaws.

1. If you look closer at this --



I don't think people are used to seeing 'cut' and 'copy' right next to 'rename' and 'share'. If you're like me you saw 'cut' then 'copy' and kinda wondered if that 3rd one was 'paste'. That moment of 'Huh' is poor design.

It's not being judgy to judge design. People are so sensitive to criticism these days. IMO it's simply a defense mechanism because it's embarrassing to screw up. I knew what was wrong here but opened LibreOffice to see how they handled it in Writer.



See the three on the right? Cut, Copy, and Paste. But see how they separate them into their own little world? That design practice was lost on Win11. If they had simply put a line here --


-- it would be what Mac users call 'intuitive' but the design world calls 'good design'.

I tell ya there could be a debate on that 'Rename' icon for hours but I'll move past to another design flaw. Which many users have complained about. When you select 'Show More Options' that INSANELY LAZY DEVELOPERS/DESIGNERS at MS do the unthinkable: bring the Win10 menu back from the grave. As I like to say but it's so true: most Linux distros would NEVER do that.

It's simple: if you introduce a new way of doing things, that menu for instance, well when you say 'show more options' it should --

1. Show all the missing options but --
2. -- not repeat any previously offered options
3. Use the same font as the first menu
4. Not dismiss the first menu but simply extend it... in case you want to change your mind and go back to the first menu
5. If you wanted to get fancy, show more options would animate a longer menu instead of offer a submenu

These are common design choices everywhere... that Microsoft apparently has never seen before. It's scary how myopic this is.

And here's a SHOCKER: Microsausage could actually offer a way for power users to edit that menu and put in it and take away from it almost anything we like. Not through registry nonsense but via a simple intuitive gui? Who does it harm... besides NO ONE?

I'll even go a step further and suggest some of the missing stuff could end up as a second row of icons, like so --



(This is a hack-job and yes I use some icons already on the screen, but you get the idea.)

This is to say that with the right design -- everything could be in that first menu. MS makes billions of dollars and yet can't hire designers as skilled as the Zorin 16 crew. It's appalling.

BunnyJ said:

The problem is defining what 'correct' is? To me the current way 11 is set up is correct and to others it's not. With the vast number of users it's going to be impossible to get it right/correct for the majority of users. So.. MS defaults to it's biggest customer base.. business and gives them what they want and need.

Does that leave us out? Yes.. it does.. but I just make do. The upgrade to 11 is free and I really have nothing major to complain about.

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The other thing to remember is we, the PC enthusiasts/members here, live in a bubble in these forums. While Microsoft may rely on this community to test their software and offer suggestions, they still have to weigh those against the much larger user base outside the bubble.

So yeah, BunnyJ is right.... what may seem "correct" for you or me, may not work for the larger audience, or even for some of us in this forum. And at the end of the day Microsoft can not please everyone, so best to cater towards the larger audience.

Anyway, I personally have no issue with learning and using Windows 11 as is. As I said somewhere else, I've never ever considered tweaking Windows to act or look like another OS. If I wanted Windows 11 to look like and act like Windows 7 or 10, I'd of stuck with those OS's.

BTW, I've yet to see a perfect OS where no one had a single complaint, so...

My two cents

BunnyJ said:

The problem is defining what 'correct' is? To me the current way 11 is set up is correct and to others it's not. With the vast number of users it's going to be impossible to get it right/correct for the majority of users. So.. MS defaults to it's biggest customer base.. business and gives them what they want and need.

Does that leave us out? Yes.. it does.. but I just make do. The upgrade to 11 is free and I really have nothing major to complain about.

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Like I said. You can't please everyone, and I don't expect MS to try.
During the W10 release, they advertised that they listened to Users. They did. Probably most of the input came from their biggest user base (Business), and the rest were largely (but admittedly, not entirely) ignored.
I disagree with pulling features out of windows and relying on third party software to fill the void, when millions of home users are asking for them back. Especially the UI customization features.

I'm sure that there will be people who love the new release "out of the box". They don't mind an extra two or three clicks (how hard is that anyway.), and they will not miss customization features they never use. Burying commands under sub menus? Changing layouts? Remove existing features and replace them with third party software? Hey! adapt and overcome baby! learn it and "Get used to it"! Could it be better? SURE! But it's what we got.

MS probably feels safe using a business model of ignoring home users because in the end, we always "come around". As I tried to illustrate in previous posts, home users will ALWAYS end up using what is served to us. Vista is a case in point. It was NEVER fully "fixed". Every time I stuck a thumb drive into a customers machine and it said there were no drivers for it, I knew I was on a Vista machine. It always had problems. After a time, home users accepted these flaws, glitches and problems as normal. Win 11 will be the new normal. Eventually 11 users will "forget" that Windows interface used to be more customizable, and the whining will die down to a trickle. When problems start creeping in, MS will blame (who?) third party software; as they do now. That (alone) does not make MS a monster. I know MS can't listen to everyone. If they did, the OS would eventually require its own separate 2TB hard drive. Ignoring millions of home users asking for features to be brought back that used to be in windows but were removed is "Just Business". That doesn't make it right though. There needs to be some balance somewhere.

"People should not have to adapt to the software. Software should adapt to the people".
{me}

Note: Maybe it IS me. Perhaps I'm just more resistant to change than I thought. I was probably one of the last people to leave XP behind for Vista. I skipped both ME and the 8 series. I still to this day use the hard fought for up arrow in Windows Explorer.
Is Win 11 really that terrible? No.... I don't think so. There is just a lot of small stuff that rubs me the wrong way. in the end, I really don't think that the minutia will cause me to skip this edition. I want to dispel any notion gathered from the diatribe above that I am in the Win 11 hater category. I WILL miss the flexibility to tailor the user interface the way I used to though. Adapt and overcome baby!

Publishing registry hacks is not fixing the problem.
Bring back F8

NEWS FLASH, Windows 11 is NOT WIN 10, and WIN 10 is NOT WIN 8.1 etc etc etc

Everyone likes to bitch & moan about a successful enterprise, and complaining about how Windows 11 functions is NO exception.

Less than 20% of revenue received by Microsoft is from its operating systems. The majority of that is gained through corporate and vendor licensing. Only a small percentage of that 20% is actually from personal sales of Windows.

Their business model is NOT about ignoring home users, it is all about what contributes financially to make a cost effective business.

With that in mind, why would Microsoft actually change their operating systems to meet the needs of its personal user base? That would be financial suicide and like what I have said before in another one of my posts, the shareholders would not be happy.

As the financial minority (home users) we have a choice, accept the FREE offering of an upgrade or continue using your original system.

My guess would be if Microsoft all of a sudden stopped free upgrades and personal users had to pay a software license of (I don't know) lets say $200 or more then there would be less complaints and only the genuine who want or need the new operating system for what it is would buy it.

Is it PERFECT, far from it, but neither is real life, and we either accept it for what it is, make do with what has been offered for FREE, or stick with what you had before.

Got news for ya..., big businesses hate it when MS does a major re-design! The learning curve often costs large corporations millions!
Not to mention, the support thereof, also costs millions!