With prices and ensh!tification of everything, how many of you are buying old hardware?

cheaterslick said:

I don't use any of those things so I'm not affected, unless....

Are there any others dependent on TPM 2.0?

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I'm not really that familiar... mostly, it's business network managers and IT managers that care. Things like device encryption (not Bitlocker), BioScanners and Virtual Smart Cards are some I can think of. Basically, things that rely on hardware attestation which is guaranteeing the PC has not been altered from approved baseline configuration measurements. I'm sure there are lots more imposed by the IT security posture of businesses.

I've wondered if some of my websites that want me to use a PIN instead of password are using the TPM in any way: maybe to store the PIN hash to evaluate it locally. I don't know, and especially don't know if they are TPM1.2 capable or TPM2.0 only.

Buddywh said:

I'm not really that familiar... mostly, it's business network managers and IT managers that care. Things like device encryption (not Bitlocker), BioScanners and Virtual Smart Cards are some I can think of. Basically, things that rely on hardware attestation which is guaranteeing the PC has not been altered from approved baseline configuration measurements. I'm sure there are lots more imposed by the IT security posture of businesses.

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I'm wondering why home users (and non-business users) would have any need for 2.0?

cheaterslick said:

I'm wondering why home users (and non-business users) would have any need for 2.0?

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TPM 1.2 relies on SHA-1 which is considered outdated and not totally secure by todays standards. There are actually a lot more differences, but that is a big one.

As for home users, I BL encrypt every single Windows drive on all of my systems. I have all my banking info, passwords, photo copies of all my important docs like birth cert, driver license, etc. No way I want to worry if a machine gets stolen.

cheaterslick said:

I'm wondering why home users (and non-business users) would have any need for 2.0?

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I like using a TPM to seal the VMK for bitlocker simply because it's worked reliably for me. But like already posted: TPM1.2's SHA1 hash can be cracked fairly quickly, TPM2.0's SHA256 would take a nation state's resources several decades to do so.

But is that an issue for me? It would still take a very smart hacker making a dedicated effort with some good equipment to crack TPM1.2's SHA1 hash IF it's even realistically possible. Any average thief would see the drive's encrypted and reformat it. I'm not so interesting that a level 99 hacker would want to steal my ancient computer and spend the time to crack it: there's to, to many others out there with everything in plain text in word doc's. If I was interesting enough for the FBI to seize my computers, I'd offer them the keys just to make them go away sooner (following consultation with my attorney). TPM 2.0 offers nothing TPM 1.2 isn't doing for me here.

But to the essence of your question: so far, the only solid reason I can think of for home users to need TPM2.0 is for those (few) games that rely on it to control cheating. Otherwise, whether TPM1.2 or TPM2.0, just disable it in BIOS and most home users will never miss it as they go about their computing lives.

Buddywh said:

But to the essence of your question: so far, the only solid reason I can think of for home users to need TPM2.0 is for those (few) games that rely on it to control cheating. Otherwise, just disable it in BIOS and most home users will never miss it as they go about their computing lives.

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Yeah, by throwing out perfectly good hardware and filling landfills with more toxic waste. Just to push hardware upgrade sales to help out some vendors who's profits weren't big enough.

cheaterslick said:

Yeah, by throwing out perfectly good hardware and filling landfills with more toxic waste. Just to push hardware upgrade sales to help out some vendors who's profits weren't big enough.

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That's overdramatizing it a bit.

The main reason most people don't need tpm2.0 on their Windows computers is because they do nothing that needs it. If they do financials (banking, credit cards, medical records, etc.) on a device that might want a TPM for hardware attestation, with increasing frequency it's a tablet or a phone. They have built-in security devices to do the same things: Apple Secure Enclave, Samsung Knox Vault for instance.

And I think Microsoft has done a lot to try and shield us from hardware obsolescences of that scale. They could have easily just up and said "OK... everybody... the Secure Boot keys will expire. Update your BIOS's or get a technician to install the updates on your system or you can expect your systems to not start Windows in the future". But they've been rolling out pushes of keys to keep them going. That says a lot for intent.

dacrone said:

Many times. But I have a handful of laptops (ddr4) and a desktop (ddr4) and a nuc (ddr5) that are loaded with ssd and 32gb of ram if anyone is interested. All run just fine.

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I'm interested if you still have this. I tried to DM you but I guess that's not allowed. Can you send me a DM/PM/whatever it's called?

Buddywh said:

That's overdramatizing it a bit.

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True, but that is the result.

I have two laptops I bought in 2020 that can't be upgraded from Windows 10 and I'm not happy about the copying of the Apple trend of 5-year planned obsolescence. This leads away from what Windows was all about. A neutral platform to host 3rd party apps and programs.

cheaterslick said:

True, but that is the result.

I have two laptops I bought in 2020 that can't be upgraded from Windows 10 and I'm not happy about the copying of the Apple trend of 5-year planned obsolescence. This leads away from what Windows was all about. A neutral platform to host 3rd party apps and programs.

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It's also the end for my phones and my wife's tablets. They don't get updates and can't get updates, cellular service generations change and phones go to the landfill. Or sold to a far-east garage shop that salvages them for the gold.

I think we've had a vastly better run with keeping our x86/Windows PC's useful than just about any other of the modern tech devices we use. Have to thank Microsoft for that. And if you think about it: Microsoft has not broken Windows 11 for TPM1.2 systems, or for no TPM at all. There are ways to install it in spite of that and they COULD break it for either case if they wanted it broken.

cheaterslick said:

I have two laptops I bought in 2020 that can't be upgraded from Windows 10

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I would be amazed if any machine running Windows 10 could not be upgraded to 11. Not doubting you at all, just new to me. Out of curiosity, do mind my asking why those cannot be upgraded to 11? I just want to educate myself on this because I always just sort of assumed that anything that could run 10 could run 11 unless it is some really, really old hardware.

hsehestedt said:

Out of curiosity, do mind my asking why those cannot be upgraded to 11?

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Oh I can do the unsupported hardware thing like you see in the tutorials around here, but that's just a workaround, not a solution.

cheaterslick said:

Oh I can do the unsupported hardware thing like you see in the tutorials around here, but that's just a workaround, not a solution.

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I view it as a solution Microsoft prefers.

Buddywh said:

I think we've had a vastly better run with keeping our PC's useful than just about any other of the modern tech devices we use. Have to thank Microsoft for that.

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Yeah, but that's changing, and not for the better.

Microsoft really wants to be like Apple and control the ecosphere. Microsoft also wants to be like Google and get all that ad revenue. That's the direction they've been heading in.

Buddywh said:

I view it as a solution Microsoft prefers.

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Then do away with it as a requirement.

cheaterslick said:

Then do away with it as a requirement.

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Then take a step backwards from the enhanced security platform they're trying to evolve towards? I think not. It only makes sense they'd want you to have to make an effort to break the OS' security features on your own. And hopefully, when you do (as I have) you do so advisedly, with consideration of the risks and taken mitigations as needed.

bobkn said:

(Groan.) Are we aiming at another thread equivalent to "WATCH OUT FOR RAM PRICES!"?

Tech forum transmogrified to social medium.

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Technically, this is social media. It is open to public viewing. This forum is very likely a gold mine for AI.

There are a few other forums out there where people can express their views and opinions about tech.

I especially enjoyed the WATCH OUT FOR RAM PRICES thread. It was a hot thread.

There are other threads I don't care for. I just don't read them or respond to them.

cheaterslick said:

Oh I can do the unsupported hardware thing like you see in the tutorials around here, but that's just a workaround, not a solution.

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Got it. Although I guess we differ in opinion on that. The limitation is an artificially imposed limit, so I don't see that as making this anything but a full solution. The proof is simple: Bypass the artificial limitations and Windows works 100% as well on unsupported hardware as it does on supported hardware (not talking performance metrics here, obviously newer hardware will be faster).

Buddywh said:

Then take a step backwards from the enhanced security platform they're trying to evolve towards?

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Of course they won't. Not unless the government grows a pair (like in the EU) and enforces some anti-trust violations they could come up with if they really wanted to take a look.

Buddywh said:

I think not. It only makes sense they'd want you to have to make an effort to break the OS' security features on your own.

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Which doesn't make sense to me because because causing the user to break the OS' security features doesn't make you more secure.

hsehestedt said:

The limitation is an artificially imposed limit, so I don't see that as making this anything but a full solution.

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Not having things like those 2.0 TPM instructions will eventually catch up with you sooner or later. That's already happening with some Windows 11 builds out there that some of the users here have been using. They can only update to 23H2 or 24H2 and can't update beyond that. You might have added a year's Windows 11 extension on to your Windows 8 or Windows 10 laptop, but given the current state of affairs. it makes more sense to me to keep those laptops on Windows 10 ESR and not have to deal with any of this hassle.

Everybody's different. I realize some people like to tinker, but I'm not one of them. That's not to say I would never do something like this in the future since I learned to never say never a long time ago.

cheaterslick said:

....

Everybody's different. I realize some people like to tinker, but I'm not one of them. That's not to say I would never do something like this in the future since I learned to never say never a long time ago.

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That's a perfectly good way to be about this. The same way many corporate IT are: they don't want their techs spending thousands of man-hours tinkering with modern software on old hardware. On certain mission-critical systems they don't change either, even buying lifetime spare parts inventories to keep them running.

I like to tinker. I keep my old system running on Win11 simply because Microsoft said it shouldn't.

cheaterslick said:

Yeah, by throwing out perfectly good hardware and filling landfills with more toxic waste. Just to push hardware upgrade sales to help out some vendors who's profits weren't big enough.

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There is a considerable amount of truth to this statement. Corporations are required to cooperate to bring about significant changes that will increase profits for all. Some of these independent groups make no big secret about it: They literally call themselves "consortium" and proudly adopt this handle. They are, in fact, consortium groups and they coordinate for the purpose of maximizing profit for their interests. This should hardly come as a surprise but many people do not want to do the digging or the homework to determine this.

I tire of dropping links to validate my statements. The evidence is out there for those who want to work their search engines. There is nothing profound about big companies doing everything in their power to make big profits. There are some who would even call this the "American" way. The downside is that smaller companies get hurt, caught in the crossfire, and die. This is hardly a good thing for free enterprise and it is dubious as to how much the domestic end user benefits from such corporate strategy. IF the consortium groups did not benefit they would not do it. So the question as to whether TPM2 is really needed for the average end user is NOT without merit.

Given TPM's track record I would suggest that it is NOT needed for the average end user and that there are likely better, more efficient, less costly measures that can be made in the name of security. But this is an old game. . . Many are well aware of the old ploy of exchanging liberty for security. These days it becomes increasingly difficult to determine who actually OWNS their own hardware, for example. The right to repair is a splendid example of this.

I am hardly convinced that any huge corporation whose bottom line is profit is all that concerned about filling landfills with more toxic waste (unless they can make a profit from it). So I don't think @cheaterslick 's observation is all that exaggerated. TPM has been hacked and cracked dozens of times so it behooves one to ask for what other reason is it being promoted and why is it being promoted in a fashion that would render a majority of PCs obsolete. How does keeping a ten year old PC alive and functional enough for it to be of significant benefit to AI companies and the like is one question worthy of review. One can best believe it has already been asked.

Corporate strategy is a real thing. If a strong and prosperous company can figure out a way to kill half a dozen birds with one stone it certainly won't hesitate if the benefits are there. Let the plebs deal with the fall out. The bottom line is profit.