Defrag/Trim

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

I'm always grateful for advice from someone who is expert in this field but sadly as with any forum there are often people that will ill-advise. In fairness, if any of you are going to advise please make sure you know what you're talking about. No offence but comments like "well I've always done it this way" or "it's up to you" are not helpful. Again I reiterate, I don't mean to cause offence with that comment but merely want to get to the truth rather than second guessing. :wink:

Samsung make it clear that running defragmentation on an SSD will harm the device and shorten it's life span. I think more clarification is needed here to help those of us who are having a hard time understanding this issue.

To get things rolling.., does the Windows Disk Defragmentation Tool know the difference between and SSD or a HDD? If so does it take the appropriate action for each device? i.e. does it only defragment HDD's and only TRIM SSD's? or does it do both on each device type? If it only TRIMs my SSD then I'm happy for it to run on a schedule however if it defragments my SSD I would rather follow the advice of Samsung and disable this feature entirely.

Try3 · Dec 29, 2021

Slinky said:
I'm always grateful for advice from someone who is expert in this field but sadly as with any forum there are often people that will ill-advise. In fairness, if any of you are going to advise please make sure you know what you're talking about. No offence but comments like "well I've always done it this way" or "it's up to you" are not helpful. Again I reiterate, I don't mean to cause offence with that comment but merely want to get to the truth rather than second guessing.

Samsung make it clear that running defragmentation on an SSD will harm the device and shorten it's life span. I think more clarification is needed here to help those of us who are having a hard time understanding this issue.

To get things rolling.., does the Windows Disk Defragmentation Tool know the difference between and SSD or a HDD? If so does it take the appropriate action for each device? i.e. does it only defragment HDD's and only TRIM SSD's? or does it do both on each device type? If it only TRIMs my SSD then I'm happy for it to run on a schedule however if it defragments my SSD I would rather follow the advice of Samsung and disable this feature entirely.

I said that it was up to you because it is. It was a simple statement of fact.

So read the referenced MS article, read the referenced clarifying article by Scott Handelsmann article and make up your own mind.

Denis

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

Thanks Denis but you're missing my point. Unless actually giving a definitive answer to my question your comments don't solve anything accept making this thread even longer. MS might say one thing whereas Samsung might say another. Unfortunately for me neither Samsung nor MS make the question very clear. If it helps anyone else with a Samsung SSD I've just done a quick chat with their tech support who've referred me to their partners in the Netherlands. I will send them the same questions and see if we can all get some clarification on the matter. Stay tuned :)

Bree · Dec 29, 2021

Slinky said:
does the Windows Disk Defragmentation Tool know the difference between and SSD or a HDD?

It's not called 'disk defragmentation tool', it's correct name is Optimise Drives. And yes, it does know the difference between SSDs and hard drives, and what to do to them.

Try3 · Dec 29, 2021

Slinky said:
Unless actually giving a definitive answer to my question your comments don't solve anything accept making this thread even longer

There is no definitive answer. The MS source & the posted Samsung advice are ~~incompatible~~ irreconcilable. You will eventually have to decide whose guidance to act on.

As for making the thread longer, I am not responsible for the off-topic posts in this thread. I don't recall one that has veered so ~~far~~ consistently off course before.

Denis

Try3 · Dec 29, 2021

Barman58;2354288 said:
I am personally perfectly happy with the capabilities of Microsoft's Drive utilities, but it is always a personal choice for the user to make.

Samsung provide a full suite of tools for their Own SSD drives which can be used to perform all maintenance procedures to the Samsung specification

They are available with full usage advice and specifications here ...

SSD Tools & Software | Download | Samsung Semiconductor

Denis

cereberus · Dec 29, 2021

Try3 said:
There is no definitive answer. The MS source & the posted Samsung advice are incompatible. You will eventually have to decide whose guidance to act on.

As for making the thread longer, I am not responsible for the off-topic posts in this thread. I don't recall one that has veered so far off course before.

Denis

For sure many have practically 3600 degrees (not a typo LOL).

Try3 · Dec 29, 2021

cereberus said:
For sure many have practically 3600 degrees (not a typo LOL).

Yes but I shouldn't have said "so far" off course but "so consistently" off course.

I do not have any Event viewer entries to offer the OP by way of comparison but my post #28 was an attempt to explain what it was that the OP was asking about in the hope that somebody else did. The OP, a fairly new forum member, has given up on us now.
- My own files on my SSDs are well below 64MB. Windows never sees the need for anything except re-trim on mine.

All the best,
Denis

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

Bree said:
It's not called 'disk defragmentation tool', it's correct name is Optimise Drives. And yes, it does know the difference between SSDs and hard drives, and what to do to them.

Now you're just being pedantic. I never said it was 'called' Windows Disk Defragmenter Tool' I merely used that phrase so everybody knew what I was referring too.

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

cereberus said:
People do not understand what the monthly SSD defrag/trim is all about - it is not a full defrag of ssd, but a partial defrag to keep the NTFS file system in tip top condition. It is not about moving files like on an HDD.

Makes sense and I can live with that for now

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

I think this sums up what many people are talking about here...

Information Source: Don’t Waste Time Optimizing Your SSD, Windows Knows What Its Doing

Windows Already Performs the Necessary Optimizations For You
There are some important optimizations, but Windows performs them all automatically. If you used an SSD with Windows XP or Vista, you needed to manually enable TRIM, which ensures your SSD can clean up deleted files and stay speedy. However, ever since Windows 7, Windows has automatically enabled TRIM for any drive it detects as solid-state.

The same goes for disk defragmentation. Performing a typical defragmentation operation on an SSD isn’t a good idea–even if wear isn’t a concern, attempting to move all that data around won’t speed up file access times like it will on a mechanical drive. But Windows already knows this, too: modern versions of Windows will detect that SSD and will turn off defragging. In fact, modern versions of Windows won’t even let you attempt to defragment an SSD.

On Windows 8 and 10, the “Optimize Drives” application will attempt to optimize your SSDs even further. Windows will send the “retrim” command on the schedule you configure. This forces the SSD to actually delete data that should have been deleted when TRIM commands were originally sent. Windows 8 and 10 will also perform an SSD-optimized type of defragmentation about once a month. Microsoft employee Scott Hanselman offers more details on his blog.

Ghot · Dec 29, 2021

If you watch as Macrium Reflect makes or restores a backup... it Trims the SSD as well.

Slinky · Dec 29, 2021

Ghot said:
If you watch as Macrium Reflect makes or restores a backup... it Trims the SSD as well. :)

That's useful to know, thank you :wink:

That's my next purchase, a reliable backup utility. I'm currently using SSR 2013 R2 by Veritas or otherwise known as Symantec System Recovery which has served me well over the years. It seems to work ok under W11 (unofficially) but as yet I haven't tried a restore.

Anibor_11 · Dec 29, 2021

Ghot said:
If you watch as Macrium Reflect makes or restores a backup... it Trims the SSD as well. :)

Macrium performs a Trim by default (can be disabled) on restores, it doesn´t when it creates an image, AFAIK.

Ghot · Dec 29, 2021

Anibor_11 said:
Macrium performs a Trim by default (can be disabled) on restores, it doesn´t when it creates an image, AFAIK.

It seems you are correct. Either way... Macrium does Trim the SSD, which was the point. :)

tinmar49 · Dec 30, 2021

I have never defragged an SSD but do carry out the optimising in Windows. There must be a big difference as optimisation has never taken more than ten seconds and even with the increase in speed over mechanical drives, that is not enough time to do much.

Dch48 · Dec 30, 2021

Okay, I have read in many locations that an SSD should never be defragmented because it can shorten it's life. Trim is very different. Trim does not defragment or move anything. It reallocates space as usable if it wasn't freed up when you deleted or uninstalled something. It can also mark bad sectors as unusable. Fragmentation on an SSD means nothing because the entire drive is accessed at once. It only matters on a HDD where the heads have to keep moving and searching for parts of a file or program. As far as the Windows scheduled automatic maintenance goes, I have never seen any evidence that it even happens. Many times when I open the optimizer, it says that the last time my drive was trimmed is further back than the weekly stuff it says is scheduled. It does seem to do it after updates though. I always do it manually and I run it twice. No particular schedule though.

Try3 · Dec 30, 2021

Dch48 said:
Okay, I have read in many locations that an SSD should never be defragmented because it can shorten it's life. Trim is very different. Trim does not defragment or move anything. It reallocates space as usable if it wasn't freed up when you deleted or uninstalled something. It can also mark bad sectors as unusable. Fragmentation on an SSD means nothing because the entire drive is accessed at once. It only matters on a HDD where the heads have to keep moving and searching for parts of a file or program. As far as the Windows scheduled automatic maintenance goes, I have never seen any evidence that it even happens. Many times when I open the optimizer, it says that the last time my drive was trimmed is further back than the weekly stuff it says is scheduled. It does seem to do it after updates though. I always do it manually and I run it twice. No particular schedule though.

It is not as clear cut as those "many locations" make out. See post #28 and the articles it leads to, particularly the MS article about defrag's behaviour with SSDs & Scott Handelsmann's further investigation into that specific topic.

In short, Windows can defrag SSDs monthly and some Eleven/Ten Forum members have seen evidence of it doing so. This behaviour was the subject of the OP's question because the OP observed it happening more often that was expected.

All the best,
Denis

Slinky · Dec 30, 2021

I've had a response back from Samsung Technical Support on the subject for anyone interested, they say pretty much what has been echoed above, i.e. the Windows Optimization Tool trims SSD drives when necessary. I guess I'm not the only one to refer to the tool as a Disk Defragmenter, @Bree LOL....

Thank you for contacting Samsung Memory Support.

Please be informed that defragmentation is not required on SSDs.

This is because SSDs have no moving parts and as such they can access any data location equally fast. You, however, should disable automatic defragmentation on your computer. Frequently defragmenting your SSD will reduce its lifespan. Please visit the OS Optimization section of Samsung Magician for help disabling automatic defragmentation.

For the Windows defragmentation we would recommend to double check with Microsoft.

Performance Optimization can restore the performance of an SSD that is suffering from performance degradation after an extended usage period.
The Performance Optimization feature automatically consolidates disparate data and prepares invalid data for future use.

In Windows 7, it accomplishes these tasks with very important SSD maintenance feature(TRIM) by writing and deleting dummy file at Magician software.

In Windows OS later than 8/8.1, Magician software opens the pop-up windows of Disk Defragmenter provided by Windows OS for TRIM operation.

Dch48 · Dec 31, 2021

Well this is interesting.

Defrag will only run on your SSD if volsnap is turned on, and volsnap is turned on by System Restore as one needs the other.

I always disable System Restore so maybe that's why I don't see the automatic maintenance happening. I disable it for 2 reasons. To save space and to avoid unnecessary activity on my SSD. I also disable Hibernation and fast boot for the same reasons.