Defrag/Trim


Yeah, we're getting a little bit into the weeds here. Strictly speaking, it is true that NVMe does not support a TRIM command. It uses a deallocate command. This is because NVMe and SATA speak different protocols, kind of like comparing Python and C#. The end result is for all intents and purposes the same.
 

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I am interested in whether the nvme drive сontroller has a built in garbage collection function like for sata ssd drives.
Yes - as noted above, the names may be different, but rest assured that NVMe SSDs of course support that same capability. Could you imagine going backwards and having flash media that didn't support this in this day and age?

EDIT: I'm excluding thumb drives from this statement. Yuck, what a horrible and inefficient medium :-)
 

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    Intel Core i5-13490F
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    MSI B760 GAMING PLUS WIFI
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    2 x 16 Patriot Memory (PDP Systems) PSD516G560081
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    GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 WINDFORCE OC 12G (GV-N4070WF3OC-12GD)
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    INNOCN 15K1F
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    WD_BLACK SN770 250GB
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    Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 1000W
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I'm unaware of any modern SSDs, whether SATA or NVMe that do not have active garbage collection capabilities. I'm tempted to say that nothing like that exists any longer, but in the world of cheap junk and "fake" drive capacities, etc. , I've been proved wrong before.

Any even remotely reputable drive brand will have this capability.
 

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    Win11 Pro 23H2
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    ASUS Prime Z590-A
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    128GB Crucial Ballistix 3200MHz DRAM
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    Realtek (on motherboard)
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    HP Envy 32
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    2560 x 1440
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    1 x 1TB NVMe Gen 4 x 4 SSD
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    Corsair HX850i
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Microsoft fixed that issue (on Win 10), early 2021.

Do you have a reference for that?

I know, from the Event records of my Windows 10 computer, that re-trim is no longer limited to monthly but I had not seen any announcement of a change.


Happy New Year,
Denis
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296
Do you have a reference for that?

I know, from the Event records of my Windows 10 computer, that re-trim is no longer limited to monthly but I had not seen any announcement of a change.


Happy New Year,
Denis


I was referring to the issue with Optimize, where it kept forgetting it had just optimized a few hours before.
Seems the "Never Run" issue I was thinking of, got fixed late 2020, not early 2021.

...and Happy New year. :)
 
Last edited:

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    Built by Ghot® [May 2020]
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    AMD Ryzen 7 3700X
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    Asus Pro WS X570-ACE (BIOS 4702)
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    Windows XP Pro 32bit w/SP3
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    Built by Ghot® (not in use)
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    AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ (OC'd @ 3.2Ghz)
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    ASUS M2N32-SLI Deluxe Wireless Edition
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    TWIN2X2048-6400C4DHX (2 x 1GB, DDR2 800)
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    EVGA 256-P2-N758-TR GeForce 8600GT SSC
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    ViewSonic G90FB Black 19" Professional (CRT)
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    up to 2048 x 1536
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    WD 36GB 10,000rpm Raptor SATA
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    Still assembled, still runs. Haven't turned it on for 13 years?
12/24
The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on Storage (D)
The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on Storage (D)
The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 11 (C)
The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on 11 (C)
12/17
The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on Storage (D)
The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on Storage (D)
The storage optimizer successfully completed defragmentation on 11 (C)
The storage optimizer successfully completed retrim on 11 (C)

Kev has identified a new behaviour. The quoted post indicates that defragmentation [not just re-trim] is being run weekly on his two SSDs. In Windows 10, that would only have run monthly even if Optimization [C:\Windows\System32\dfrgui.exe] had been set to weekly.

In Windows 10 the less-than-straightforward behaviour was described in SSD Trim Windows 10 - TenForums, which cross-refers to the same MS article that Kev's sister found.
- Kev's sister's internal investigation indicates that MS believe that nothing has changed in Windows 10 & that Windows 11 behaves the same way.

What are other people finding?
- The data is in Event viewer, Application log, Source - Defrag.
- Does the description in the General/Details tab record "defragmentation" [rather than just "re-trim"] happening weekly or still just monthly?
- The difference is only distinguished in that event description.
- Re-trim entries will exist weekly.
- My own Windows 11 testbed computer is not being used enough to be a useful example. Even in Windows 10 it never once recorded an SSD defrag taking place and I haven't seen it on my main laptop either [it uses Windows 10].

Denis
 
Last edited:

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    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296
If you have a home computer, it is easier to do manual optimization. Remove the disk optimization task.

The task is started as 'SYSTEM' ?
 
Last edited:

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    MSI MS-7D98
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    Intel Core i5-13490F
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    MSI B760 GAMING PLUS WIFI
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    2 x 16 Patriot Memory (PDP Systems) PSD516G560081
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    GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 WINDFORCE OC 12G (GV-N4070WF3OC-12GD)
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    Bluetooth Аудио
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    INNOCN 15K1F
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    WD_BLACK SN770 250GB
    KINGSTON SNV2S1000G (ELFK0S.6)
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If you have a home computer, it is easier to do manual optimization. Remove the disk optimization task.

The task is started as 'SYSTEM' ?
How is doing it manually easier than just letting it do its job automatically. If you do not want it to be done as frequently, just change setting!
 

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro + others in VHDs
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    Laptop
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    ASUS Vivobook 14
    CPU
    I7
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    Yep, Laptop has one.
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Integrated Intel Iris XE
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    Realtek built in
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    N/A
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    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Optane NVME SSD, 1 TB NVME SSD
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    Yep, got one
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    Yep, got one
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    Stella Artois
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    Built in
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    72 Mb/s :-(
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    TPM 2.0
I'm a little bit perplexed by this whole discussion. We are now 31 posts into this thread which started as worries about the frequency of defrag / retrim operations. We've determined that things are working as expected. That should pretty much be the end of it. If some sort of problem was evident or if we were dealing with an unusual use case scenario, then there might be legitimate reasons to change the default behavior.

So far, I've not seen anything presented that would cause one to conclude that there is any problem needing to be addressed here.

If you want to change the default behavior simply for personal preference, by all means, go for it. However, in my opinion, I usually find that settings for system activities such as this are very carefully chosen and would typically suggest simply leaving it alone unless you have a reason to change it. Not everything that can be changed needs to be changed :-).
 

My Computers

System One System Two

  • OS
    Win11 Pro 23H2
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
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    Home Built
    CPU
    Intel i7-11700K
    Motherboard
    ASUS Prime Z590-A
    Memory
    128GB Crucial Ballistix 3200MHz DRAM
    Graphics Card(s)
    No GPU - CPU graphics only (for now)
    Sound Card
    Realtek (on motherboard)
    Monitor(s) Displays
    HP Envy 32
    Screen Resolution
    2560 x 1440
    Hard Drives
    1 x 1TB NVMe Gen 4 x 4 SSD
    1 x 2TB NVMe Gen 3 x 4 SSD
    2 x 512GB 2.5" SSDs
    2 x 8TB HD
    PSU
    Corsair HX850i
    Case
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    Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black cooler + 10 case fans
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    CODE backlit mechanical keyboard
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    WiFi 6E PCIe adapter
    ASUS ThunderboltEX 4 PCIe adapter
  • Operating System
    Win11 Pro 23H2
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    Lenovo ThinkBook 13x Gen 2
    CPU
    Intel i7-1255U
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics card(s)
    Intel Iris Xe Graphics
    Sound Card
    Realtek® ALC3306-CG codec
    Monitor(s) Displays
    13.3-inch IPS Display
    Screen Resolution
    WQXGA (2560 x 1600)
    Hard Drives
    2 TB 4 x 4 NVMe SSD
    PSU
    USB-C / Thunderbolt 4 Power / Charging
    Mouse
    Buttonless Glass Precision Touchpad
    Keyboard
    Backlit, spill resistant keyboard
    Internet Speed
    1Gb Up / 1Gb Down
    Browser
    Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
    Other Info
    WiFi 6e / Bluetooth 5.1 / Facial Recognition / Fingerprint Sensor / ToF (Time of Flight) Human Presence Sensor
I'm a little bit perplexed by this whole discussion. We are now 31 posts into this thread which started as worries about the frequency of defrag / retrim operations. We've determined that things are working as expected. That should pretty much be the end of it. If some sort of problem was evident or if we were dealing with an unusual use case scenario, then there might be legitimate reasons to change the default behavior.

That was not quite the issue.

The issue was the apparent change in [default] behaviour compared to Windows 10 & MS's published documentation.

Nobody has "determined that things are working as expected". Things are not "working as expected".
- The OP's OP did not explain what was being experienced. The OP's post #8 was the first to identify the changed behaviour.
- According to MS, defragmenting the SSDs should not have been taking place weekly even though optimization was set to take place weekly.
- I tried to explain this in my post #28 above.

All the best,
Denis
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296
That was not quite the issue.

The issue was the apparent change in [default] behaviour compared to Windows 10 & MS's published documentation.

Nobody has "determined that things are working as expected". Things are not "working as expected".
- The OP's OP did not explain what was being experienced. The OP's post #8 was the first to identify the changed behaviour.
- According to MS, defragmenting the SSDs should not have been taking place weekly even though optimization was set to take place weekly.
- I tried to explain this in my post #28 above.

All the best,
Denis
Who cares - it does not cause any issues trimming once a week.

People do not understand what the monthly SSD defrag/trim is all about - it is not a full defrag of ssd, but a partial defrag to keep the NTFS file system in tip top condition. It is not about moving files like on an HDD.

Simple terms:

The weekly trim is used to ensure wear and tear is averaged out. This function is needed - only issue is how often? For a light user, once a month may be ok, but why bother change frequency?

The monthly function ensures the NTFS file system does not get excessively fragmented. It is debatable if this is ever even really needed for an average user.


I cannot see any more point in discussing this - it is all pointless.

Windows 11 is doing it correctly - W10 was always a bit wonky.
 

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  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro + others in VHDs
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Vivobook 14
    CPU
    I7
    Motherboard
    Yep, Laptop has one.
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Integrated Intel Iris XE
    Sound Card
    Realtek built in
    Monitor(s) Displays
    N/A
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Optane NVME SSD, 1 TB NVME SSD
    PSU
    Yep, got one
    Case
    Yep, got one
    Cooling
    Stella Artois
    Keyboard
    Built in
    Mouse
    Bluetooth , wired
    Internet Speed
    72 Mb/s :-(
    Browser
    Edge mostly
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    TPM 2.0
So to clarify..., SSD's are not actually being defragmented but rather the deleted blocks of data are being trimmed ready for re-use, whereas a mechanical HDD has the deleted blocks of data physically removed to allow for re-writing? Perhaps Microsoft need to make this more clear in the Defragmenting Tool?

Some definitive clarification would be useful here as I too am now a little concerned by the latest comments. Indeed what drew me to this post in the first instance was this Q&A extracted from the Samsung website, this suggest disabling defragmentation:

Screenshot 2021-12-29 123209.png
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Prime B350 Plus
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 5 1600 AM4 Hex Core Processor 3200GHz
    Motherboard
    ASUS Prime B350 Plus
    Memory
    Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2x8 GB) DDR4 2666 MHz C16 XMP 2.0 High Performance Desktop Memory Kit - Red
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVidia Geforce GTX 1050 Ti
    Sound Card
    Onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    DELL U2412M
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1200
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 850 EVO SSD 120Gb
    Seagate 2 TB
    PSU
    EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2, 80+ GOLD 750W, Fully Modular
    Case
    Chieftec Scorpio TX 10BWD Mid Tower
    Cooling
    Arctic F8 PWM Rev.2
    Keyboard
    Logitech K520
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3
    Internet Speed
    72.35 Mbps Down - 18.53 Mbps Up
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
So to clarify..., SSD's are not actually being defragmented
Incorrect. According to the MS reference, SSDs are defragged monthly if Optimization is set to weekly. The OP's posted results indicate that they are actually being defragged weekly despite what the MS reference says.

Denis
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296
So with the advice from Samsung in mind, should I disabled the disk defragmenter for my SSD? If so how will the trim feature work?
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11
    Computer type
    PC/Desktop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Prime B350 Plus
    CPU
    AMD Ryzen 5 1600 AM4 Hex Core Processor 3200GHz
    Motherboard
    ASUS Prime B350 Plus
    Memory
    Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2x8 GB) DDR4 2666 MHz C16 XMP 2.0 High Performance Desktop Memory Kit - Red
    Graphics Card(s)
    NVidia Geforce GTX 1050 Ti
    Sound Card
    Onboard
    Monitor(s) Displays
    DELL U2412M
    Screen Resolution
    1920 x 1200
    Hard Drives
    Samsung 850 EVO SSD 120Gb
    Seagate 2 TB
    PSU
    EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2, 80+ GOLD 750W, Fully Modular
    Case
    Chieftec Scorpio TX 10BWD Mid Tower
    Cooling
    Arctic F8 PWM Rev.2
    Keyboard
    Logitech K520
    Mouse
    Logitech MX Master 3
    Internet Speed
    72.35 Mbps Down - 18.53 Mbps Up
    Browser
    Microsoft Edge
    Antivirus
    Windows Defender
So with the advice from Samsung in mind, should I disabled the disk defragmenter for my SSD?
It's entirely up to you whether you follow Samsung's advice or let Windows do what MS think is best.
I have a five year old SSD that I've always let Windows manage and it has only used a few percent of its life. So it will outlive both the computer & me.

If so how will the trim feature work?
Perhaps Samsung have advice about that in their 'SSD magician' settings.

Denis
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296
So to clarify..., SSD's are not actually being defragmented but rather the deleted blocks of data are being trimmed ready for re-use, whereas a mechanical HDD has the deleted blocks of data physically removed to allow for re-writing? Perhaps Microsoft need to make this more clear in the Defragmenting Tool?

Some definitive clarification would be useful here as I too am now a little concerned by the latest comments. Indeed what drew me to this post in the first instance was this Q&A extracted from the Samsung website, this suggest disabling defragmentation:

View attachment 17141
This proves my point that very few understand what an ssd defrag is.
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 10 Pro + others in VHDs
    Computer type
    Laptop
    Manufacturer/Model
    ASUS Vivobook 14
    CPU
    I7
    Motherboard
    Yep, Laptop has one.
    Memory
    16 GB
    Graphics Card(s)
    Integrated Intel Iris XE
    Sound Card
    Realtek built in
    Monitor(s) Displays
    N/A
    Screen Resolution
    1920x1080
    Hard Drives
    1 TB Optane NVME SSD, 1 TB NVME SSD
    PSU
    Yep, got one
    Case
    Yep, got one
    Cooling
    Stella Artois
    Keyboard
    Built in
    Mouse
    Bluetooth , wired
    Internet Speed
    72 Mb/s :-(
    Browser
    Edge mostly
    Antivirus
    Defender
    Other Info
    TPM 2.0
Does anybody have any results to post for the OP in response to my post #28 above?

Denis
 

My Computer

System One

  • OS
    Windows 11 Home x64 Version 23H2 Build 22631.3296

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