RAM uncertainty

Scannerman · Apr 8, 2023

CountMike said:
According to chipset drivers PCIe device is just whole PCIe bus. All of it but that's for Ryzen system.

Yep. I'm hoping that's the case. I've seen cards represented that way in device manager when they don't have drivers though. I don't have enough information to formulate a conclusion. Either way that bus needs attention.

sjc312 · Apr 8, 2023

CountMike said:
According to chipset drivers PCIe device is just whole PCIe bus.

I installed the chipset driver first, then the others, but I couldn’t install the Management Engine Driver update because when I pressed MEUpdater to install it nothing happened, I just got a warning message to check it was already on the PC, which it is (photos, under 4650). Then I googled it and they said something about it being BIOS related, so I decided to leave it alone until later, not realizing how important it was. (Google has led me on several wild goose chases…)

So today I decided to update the ME driver manually by right-clicking, and selecting the ASUS ME Updater folder, but Windows then said the best driver was already installed. So regarding the chipset...

ASUS_CHIPSET_INTEL_SERIAL_IO (Installed)

MEUpdateTool_16.1.25.2020v2_S_Z (NOT installed)

Marcus Vinicus · Apr 8, 2023

CountMike said:
i wouldn't rely on Armory Crate too much, not very good application.

Agreed, I use Asus boards and I don't like Armory Crate.....

PerpetualCycle · Apr 9, 2023

Marcus Vinicus said:
Agreed, I use Asus boards and I don't like Armory Crate.....

If you just want RGB control use Asus Aura Sync. It is no longer being updated since 2022, but it is better than the bloated, buggy, forever beta Armory Crate - as long as it supports your hardware.

ASUS Aura: Campaigns

Personalize your gaming rig with Aura RGB lighting and synchronize effects with a vast portfolio of Aura Sync capable gear.

www.asus.com

For monitoring the hardware, use HWINFO64. It can give you much more information and is very reliable. You can customize it to show what you want, define custom values and warnings, and apply visual graphs ,and is lean with no bloat:

Scannerman · Apr 9, 2023

I use HWINFO64 also and find it very reliable. I haven't bothered to customize it but I've never had a problem with it. My top two PCs are both ASUS system boards, my work station is an Intel platform and my entertainment rig is AMD. Have not used Armory Crate for ages. I don't really need it now that I installed it.

Scannerman · Apr 9, 2023

sjc312 said:
I installed the chipset driver first, then the others, but I couldn’t install the Management Engine Driver update because when I pressed MEUpdater to install it nothing happened, I just got a warning message to check it was already on the PC, which it is (photos, under 4650). Then I googled it and they said something about it being BIOS related, so I decided to leave it alone until later, not realizing how important it was. (Google has led me on several wild goose chases…)

So today I decided to update the ME driver manually by right-clicking, and selecting the ASUS ME Updater folder, but Windows then said the best driver was already installed. So regarding the chipset...

ASUS_CHIPSET_INTEL_SERIAL_IO (Installed)

MEUpdateTool_16.1.25.2020v2_S_Z (NOT installed)

That's great news! I'm not sure if you really need that update tool anyway. Have you checked to see if you're using the latest BIOS version for your system board? It looks as though all those nasty yellow triangles have been eliminated and the other problems have been dealt with. Progress! :)

*Edit* - Perhaps this link might be helpful?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ASUS/comments/zzntim

sjc312 · Apr 10, 2023

geneo said:
If you just want RGB control use Asus Aura Sync. It is no longer being updated since 2022, but it is better than the bloated, buggy, forever beta Armory Crate - as long as it supports your hardware.

Although Armoury Crate is installed it is nowhere to be found on the pc. I’m actually using ASUS AI Suite 3 which provides temps and voltage info. The pc is RGB free at the moment.

Scannerman said:
That's great news! I'm not sure if you really need that update tool anyway. Have you checked to see if you're using the latest BIOS version for your system board?

I’m on the latest BIOS version for my board, 0810, and so as you rightly suggest, I don’t really need the MEUpdate tool, however I have made a note of the link you have provided. The pc is very stable otherwise.

Scannerman said:
It looks as though all those nasty yellow triangles have been eliminated and the other problems have been dealt with. Progress! :)

Not quite.

Two exclamation marks remain -

PCI Device
SM Bus Controller

I asked Windows to search for and install the missing drivers but it couldn’t find any online. At one point I did consider copying and pasting the Device ID details under the exclamation marks into the Edge browser to see if there would be any clues, but I’ve never done that before and don’t know if it’s safe to do so.

I also conducted a few basic system checks such as sfc/ scannow and DISM /Online /CheckHealth and although a few errors were found and repaired there was no change in what I really wanted to be repaired i.e. the two remaining exclamation marks. I also carried out full virus checks which came out clean.

Would I have to do a clean install?

Scannerman · Apr 10, 2023

sjc312 said:
Although Armoury Crate is installed it is nowhere to be found on the pc. I’m actually using ASUS AI Suite 3 which provides temps and voltage info. The pc is RGB free at the moment.

I’m on the latest BIOS version for my board, 0810, and so as you rightly suggest, I don’t really need the MEUpdate tool, however I have made a note of the link you have provided. The pc is very stable otherwise.

Not quite.

Two exclamation marks remain -

PCI Device
SM Bus Controller

I asked Windows to search for and install the missing drivers but it couldn’t find any online. At one point I did consider copying and pasting the Device ID details under the exclamation marks into the Edge browser to see if there would be any clues, but I’ve never done that before and don’t know if it’s safe to do so.

I also conducted a few basic system checks such as sfc/ scannow and DISM /Online /CheckHealth and although a few errors were found and repaired there was no change in what I really wanted to be repaired i.e. the two remaining exclamation marks. I also carried out full virus checks which came out clean.

Would I have to do a clean install?

OK. We are still making progress. To be honest, I'm not entirely familiar with newer system boards using DDR5. Most of the builds I do use DDR4 or even DDR3 memory and it has been my experience that once the memory platform changes everything (almost) changes. I will try to help where I can.

ASUS and Armoury Crate seem to have a weird thing going. I recall having to reinstall it once just to get other things to work right and I never use it because it is annoying and unreliable. So I'm glad you don't care about the RGB end of it.

Another plus: You have the latest BIOS version installed on your system board. I know the update tool was totally optional on older ASUS system boards so you might try running a clean uninstall of that. This could result in some annoying error messages popping up on your screen but I believe you can remove those from the library in Management although I've never done this with Win 11.

I don't know what your complete system specs are, if you're using any additional cards at all, or some device requiring an update. Perhaps you tried something at some point and later removed it? At any rate I would advise completely uninstalling and removing those two bangs and rebooting. See if they're still there. Before you do this make sure to unplug any peripherals other than your keyboard and mouse. Once you're rebooted check to ensure that all your USB connectivity is still working.

I don't recommend a clean install of Windows at this point. The PCI device could be simply a matter of a missing card or a card that needs a driver. Try this and get back to us :)

Oh. One more thing: Do you have XMP enabled in your BIOS?

CountMike · Apr 11, 2023

Memory works same way as it ever did. Main changes are in production process and largest jump was from EDO to DDR. Main advance was staking memory chips in several layers on single physical chip and that kept on increasing. With EDO it needed 8 chips for 1 MB + a control chip. Same for DDR1 but it was for 1GB, Number of layers increased with each DDR generation, with DDR5 you can have 16GB in 4 chips.
Another thing that changes with each generation is number of lines connecting it to CPU which increases number of operations in each power cycle which in turn boosts speed but also needs more pins.
Probably best part with DDR was moving memory controller from a chip on MB to IMC (Internal Memory Controller) in the processor eliminating a step and having CPU as only control.
DDR5 got another advantage and that's in IMC whih now can have 2 channels per IMC so DDR5 can have dual channel instead of one in every module which theoretically doubles memory throughput.
As it got more complicated and with fiber/smaller transistors variation of quality between identical chips grew and it was possible to overclock some RAM so with DDR3 Intel introduced XMP which is just firmware that suggests BIOS to make settings for best tested speed and other parameters for particular RAM stick instead of dong it manually.

Scannerman · Apr 11, 2023

CountMike said:
Memory works same way as it ever did. Main changes are in production process and largest jump was from EDO to DDR. Main advance was staking memory chips in several layers on single physical chip and that kept on increasing. With EDO it needed 8 chips for 1 MB + a control chip. Same for DDR1 but it was for 1GB, Number of layers increased with each DDR generation, with DDR5 you can have 16GB in 4 chips.
Another thing that changes with each generation is number of lines connecting it to CPU which increases number of operations in each power cycle which in turn boosts speed but also needs more pins.
Probably best part with DDR was moving memory controller from a chip on MB to IMC (Internal Memory Controller) in the processor eliminating a step and having CPU as only control.
DDR5 got another advantage and that's in IMC whih now can have 2 channels per IMC so DDR5 can have dual channel instead of one in every module which theoretically doubles memory throughput.
As it got more complicated and with fiber/smaller transistors variation of quality between identical chips grew and it was possible to overclock some RAM so with DDR3 Intel introduced XMP which is just firmware that suggests BIOS to make settings for best tested speed and other parameters for particular RAM stick instead of dong it manually.

I've since learned that sjc312 is using a DDR4 system memory platform. I have noticed from the turn of the millennium that more significant changes in system boards are marked by generations of RAM. In fact, that is how I categorize them now in my mind because a change in DDR Memory always results in a new generation of CPUs, CPU sockets, and/or other features such as USB connectivity and ports — not excluding changes in PCI. It's good to see that USB4 is finally out on system boards. I've waited for that for a long time. Now I'm wondering when the new PCIe cards will be coming out for USB4 upgrades on older system boards such as my own. I like XMP for starting my OC on memory and then seeing how far I can go with it when I switch to manual. There was something about XMP in the link I sent sjc312 which might help to eliminate their issue. This could be the setting in the BIOS they were mentioning. Anyway, if they're not manually overclocking the memory it might be a good idea to at least set it on XMP. Can't hurt.

sjc312 · Apr 12, 2023

Scannerman said:
I know the update tool was totally optional on older ASUS system boards so you might try running a clean uninstall of that. This could result in some annoying error messages popping up on your screen but I believe you can remove those from the library in Management although I've never done this with Win 11.

As I mentioned earlier, I was unable to install the MEUpdate tool as the Intel Management Engine Interface driver was already installed on the pc by Windows without any interaction from myself. However, I will attempt a clean install of that driver as suggested tomorrow.

Scannerman said:
I don't know what your complete system specs are, if you're using any additional cards at all, or some device requiring an update. Perhaps you tried something at some point and later removed it?

I initially had a 128GB SSD containing stand-alone apps attached to the mobo as a D: drive, but removed it after about the third OS install, as someone on YT had mentioned that the MBR could be separated from the C: drive and deposited elsewhere if multiple drives are present. I then left the SATA cable attached to the mobo, to save me fiddling around when reinstalling the SSD. Since you raised the matter, I have now removed the cable.

Scannerman said:
At any rate I would advise completely uninstalling and removing those two bangs and rebooting. See if they're still there.

I carried out the remove instruction twice i.e. uninstalled the two exclamation marks and then rebooted, but they came right back. My processor has built-in graphics so if need be, I could remove the NVIDIA graphics card also and reboot, to see if that changes anything.

This evening, I went back to the ASUS website to check the driver download section and copied all the driver titles for my board and then noted which ones I installed. I had deduced each driver's importance based on how they had been presented on the download site before installation.

Intel LAN Driver V12.19.2.45 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (INSTALLED)

Intel SerialIO Software V30.100.2237.26 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (INSTALLED)

Intel SerialIO Software V30.100.2221.20 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Intel GNA Driver V3.0.0.1457 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Intel Management Engine Interface V2229.3.2.0 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Intel Chipset Driver V10.1.19199.8340 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Realtek Audio Driver V6.0.9381.1 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (INSTALLED)

Intel Graphics Accelerator Driver V31.0.101.3678 For Windows 10/11 64-bit. (INSTALLED)

Intel Graphics Accelerator Driver V31.0.101.3302 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

ASUS AI Suite 3 V3.03.17 (INSTALLED)

WinRAR V6.10.0 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit. (NOT INSTALLED)

ASUS AI Suite 3 V3.03.11 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit. (NOT INSTALLED)

ASUS CPU-Z V2.01 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit. (NOT INSTALLED)

Intel Rapid Storage Technology Driver software V19.5.1.1040 For Windows 10/11 64-bit. (INSTALLED)

Intel Rapid Storage Technology Driver software V19.5.0.1037 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Armoury Crate & Aura Creator Installer (INSTALLED)

Armoury Crate Uninstall Tool (INSTALLED)

Scannerman said:
Oh. One more thing: Do you have XMP enabled in your BIOS?

XMP has been disabled in the BIOS since the installation of the OS. I had enabled it whilst conducting Memtest86 scans, then I turned it off.

Scannerman said:
There was something about XMP in the link I sent sjc312 which might help to eliminate their issue. This could be the setting in the BIOS they were mentioning. Anyway, if they're not manually overclocking the memory it might be a good idea to at least set it on XMP. Can't hurt.

OK...XMP2 will be turned on the BIOS

PenPusher · Apr 12, 2023

Do you have GNA turned on in the Bios?

ThrashZone · Apr 12, 2023

sjc312 said:
Hi all

Despite uncertainty due to conflicting online reviews, I installed two 1.35volt Corsair CL18 ram sticks into an Asus Z790M board as part of a new build in an m-atx case. Initially, the board won’t boot, beeping ram issues. I reset CMOS and used just 1 stick and was able to boot into the BIOS. I immediately enabled XMP2 which made the mobo accept the ram’s voltage and then carried out a successful memtest86 with zero errors.

Having seen the thread below I know this does not mean the new build is safe from crashes etc.

What are the best settings from my RAM? - Page 1- Windows 10 Forums (tenforums.com)

Asus Prime and MSI Gaming plus boards had been specifically cited as having issues with 3600 ram. Also, I read somewhere that it’s best to disable XMP until Windows and all its initial updates are installed in order to avoid update errors. Is this true?

I have a couple of weeks to return the ram if I run into problems, so any advice would be much appreciated.

Board : Asus Z790M plus D4 (BIOS 0411)
RAM : Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3600 (2 x 16GB) CMK32GX4M2Z3600C18
Processor : Intel i5 12400
SSD : Samsung 980 Pro M.2 NVME 500GB
Graphics : Asus Dual NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 12GB (not yet installed)
Windows 11 Home (not yet installed)

Hi,
No corsair memory or other brands either are 100% safe from crashes

Lots of people have more issues with corsair memory than other brands because they change parts way to often on same frequencies cas latency as well
Personally I go with trident-z line and it's never failed but I always buy single kits and don't mix to add more.

3600c18 is mediocre at best cas latency and bets off on if it does well.
If you want a safer bet do 3600c16.

bobkn · Apr 12, 2023

While DDR5 has two channels per DIMM, each channel is 32 bits wide, vs. the single 64 bit channel on older DDR.

There are supposed to be advantages to that, but nothing like a doubling of performance.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of going with DDR5. I use it myself, and it meets my expectations.

sjc312 · Apr 12, 2023

ThrashZone said:
3600c18 is mediocre at best cas latency and bets off on if it does well.
If you want a safer bet do 3600c16

Noted.

sjc312 said:
Intel Chipset Driver V10.1.19199.8340 for Windows 10 64-bit & Win11 64-bit---(WHQL). (NOT INSTALLED)

Error on my part. This was installed.

CountMike · Apr 13, 2023

sjc312 said:
Noted.

Error on my part. This was installed.

It should be under Firmware

Scannerman · Apr 13, 2023

@sjc312

I'm with ThrashZone on the Corsair stuff. (Partly why I keep on calling it "that RAM".) I don't know if Corsair's Dominator is the same stuff it used to be, but once upon a time it used Samsung B die silicon and it was pretty decent stuff. According to Buildzoid, Corsair doesn't even bin their chips and that LPX stuff was always a gamble. I won't buy it anymore. For stock RAM (if you don't plan on overclocking and you just want standard performance) I recommend Crucial. They bin their chips and they make their own silicon and their standard of manufacturing is second to none. For XMP/OC RAM I've found Team Group T-Force to be both reliable and economical. If money is no object Trident Z seems a good choice based on the hundreds of reviews I've read from users. It can get pretty pricey but at least they deliver on the latency and frequency.

I'm not too fussy. I'm happy with a CAS of 15-15-15 @ 3666 MHz. but as for newer systems and DDR5 memory I reserve any comment. lol ask me in 5 years.

ThrashZone · Apr 13, 2023

sjc312 said:
Noted.

Error on my part. This was installed.

Hi,
Looks like you're leaning to ddr5
A good thing to keep in mind is cas latency numbers or CL

Try to consider if you see CL 36 try to get that cl as close to 7200c36 or cl28 5600c28 and so on 6000c30 these are also considered mediocre

In a perfect world/ budget you'd want the CLx2= at least the same or lower than the first to numbers of the rated speed just like the ddr4 example 3600c16
c16x2=32 and first two numbers of speed is 36 which is 4 under and considered awesome

Scannerman · Apr 14, 2023

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
Looks like you're leaning to ddr5
A good thing to keep in mind is cas latency numbers or CL

Try to consider if you see CL 36 try to get that cl as close to 7200c36 or cl28 5600c28 and so on 6000c30 these are also considered mediocre

In a perfect world/ budget you'd want the CLx2= at least the same or lower than the first to numbers of the rated speed just like the ddr4 example 3600c16
c16x2=32 and first two numbers of speed is 36 which is 4 under and considered awesome

I think they're considering it but using DDR4 atm. I would imagine some things about DDR4 and 5 are still the same. I'm guessing For best OC performance it's still two sticks in a single channel or just a single stick. Always a compromise when you're loading A+B and sometimes C + D. I did a little mild OC on my workstation. Not trying to break any records, just wanted a more responsive system. It could prob use some more tweaking but it does pretty good for what it is. Those numbers look pretty staggering to an old enthusiast like me.

sjc312 · Apr 15, 2023

PenPusher said:
Do you have GNA turned on in the Bios?

I did look this up GNA thing (Gaussian and Neural Accelerator), and it seems in some cases it can interfere with driver installation. Exactly where is it in the BIOS, please? And should I turn it on or off? I have the driver downloaded already in case I have to install it.

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
No corsair memory or other brands either are 100% safe from crashes

Lots of people have more issues with corsair memory than other brands because they change parts way to often on same frequencies cas latency as well
Personally I go with trident-z line and it's never failed but I always buy single kits and don't mix to add more.

3600c18 is mediocre at best cas latency and bets off on if it does well.
If you want a safer bet do 3600c16.

As a precaution, I checked the qvl list for my board, but was specifically looking for Corsair RAM as all my other builds have this brand. I had assumed that a CL18 stick with 3600hz timing would be just fractionally slower than a CL16.

CountMike said:
It should be under Firmware

According to my Device Manager Firmware Tree

Device Firmware – Driver provider and digital signer – Microsoft, driver version 10.0.22621.1
Device Firmware – Same as above
System Firmware – Same as above

There is no indication of any ASUS file properties in the Firmware Tree whatsoever, even though as I mentioned, I did install the chipset driver. To add to my confusion, when extracted there are usually two .exe files in the ASUS driver folder, one of which is ASUS Setup, which I always select. It’s quite possible that I may have double-clicked the wrong .exe file whilst installing a driver, leading to chaos.

With Windows 7 and 10, I installed the OS offline, then the mobo drivers also offline, to stop Windows from automatically downloading and installing whatever it saw fit, and as a result, in my experience at least, my builds were very stable (ASUS P5G41M-LX dual core and ASUS B85M-G core i5).

Now it seems an internet connection is a prerequisite, with no way of getting onto the Windows desktop, and even if I could bypass this, the mobo driver files are now the very barebones, requiring an internet connection to fully download other relevant files particular to the driver before completing the installation.

Then we have the infamous Intel Driver and Support Assistant….

Scannerman said:
I'm with ThrashZone on the Corsair stuff. (Partly why I keep on calling it "that RAM".) I don't know if Corsair's Dominator is the same stuff it used to be, but once upon a time it used Samsung B die silicon and it was pretty decent stuff.

According to the BIOS, both my Corsair RAM sticks in this build were manufactured by Samsung, but that's as far as the information goes.