With prices and ensh!tification of everything, how many of you are buying old hardware?

cheaterslick · Saturday at 8:48 PM

Buddywh said:
That's a perfectly good way to be about this. The same way corporate IT are: they don't want their techs spending thousands of man-hours tinkering with modern software on old hardware. They either don't change either... or upgrade their users' computers on 3-5 year cycle.

Yup, been there, done that. You are limited to replace things by the budget for the year and capital gains on equipment. And the too-cheap-to-do-the-right-thing bean counters who get in the way.

Buddywh said:
I like to tinker. I keep my old system running on Win11 simply because Microsoft said it shouldn't.

Oh I'll do it if I have a gun pointed to my head, but no, it's not something I would go out of my way of doing and I shouldn't have to.

Scannerman · Saturday at 8:59 PM

cheaterslick said:
Oh I'll do it if I have a gun pointed to my head, but no, it's not something I would go out of my way of doing and I shouldn't have to.

I can think of at least a dozen other ways that I would prefer to tinker. Making an operating system function on an unsupported platform isn't one of them. I want my PC to be perfectly functional for at least 10 years (15 would be optimum). But the golden era of the PC (i.e. desktop and laptops) is fading away and hand held devices are what is in vogue. Maybe the ultimate goal is to get people off laptops and desktops. Perhaps the Consortium groups could use this argument to bolster how at least by volume they are limiting the amount of toxic waste they generate through obsoletion. I certainly wouldn't put it past them.

cheaterslick · Saturday at 9:08 PM

Scannerman said:
TPM has been hacked and cracked dozens of times so it behooves one to ask for what other reason is it being promoted and why is it being promoted in a fashion that would render a majority of PCs obsolete.

THIS!!

Yes, some security is better than nothing, but I've also never been convinced totally of the merits of TPM. They said 2.0 can't be hacked but they also said that about 1.2 a few years back.

So they want people to rest on their laurels and think everything's fine, when I believe misused AI will hack 2.0 sooner or later, if it hasn't already.

Scannerman said:
Maybe the ultimate goal is to get people off laptops and desktops.

That I'll never happen. There's too many things you can't do with a phone and that won't work for some people. Especially for people with physical limitations.

One size does not fit all.

Scannerman · Saturday at 9:26 PM

cheaterslick said:
Yes, some security is better than nothing, but I've also never been convinced totally of the merits of TPM. They said 2.0 can't be hacked but they also said that about 1.2 a few years back.

I hate to point this out but to the best of my knowledge TPM2 has already been hacked twice and security keys stolen to prove it. Of course the issue has been remedied (we are told) but there it is... Hello, new boss.. same as..

cheaterslick said:
There's too many things you can't do with a phone and that won't work for some people.

The exception only proves the rule. Sometimes being the exception proves to be rather expensive.

cheaterslick · Saturday at 9:39 PM

Scannerman said:
I hate to point this out but to the best of my knowledge TPM2 has already been hacked twice and security keys stolen to prove it. Of course the issue has been remedied (we are told) but there it is... Hello, new boss.. same as..

Well there ya go... :wink:

Scannerman said:
The exception only proves the rule. Sometimes being the exception proves to be rather expensive.

Those are the costs of doing business. Not everybody out there has full mobility or good eyesight and yes, we sometimes have to pay for those costs. Especially as we get older and some of us find ourselves in the same position as those we criticize and don't want to pay for.

Scannerman · Saturday at 9:50 PM

Micro computers are vast becoming popular. It is impressive what Nucs, Raspberry Pi, and the rest of them are capable of. Keyboards are a bit of a different matter though. Whoever would have thought that a keyboard could be larger than the PC it plugs into? Large monitors will also be around for a long time. Handheld devices were built for mobility but if these can satisfy the lion's share of PC user requirements the big boxes and large laptops are bound to fall into the specialty category. I suspect the main reason they're still around is due to the popularity of these older style devices with gamers and hobbyists.

cheaterslick · Saturday at 10:06 PM

Scannerman said:
I suspect the main reason they're still around is due to the popularity of these older style devices with gamers and hobbyists.

Could be. The places I worked at in the last few years were either using thin clients (with mini-drives in them) or some were hooked directly into the cloud like a bank terminal using a closed network. Some workstations still required a full CPU because the cloud at the time couldn't handle all the local processing that was required for certain areas. If the cloud went down (and it frequently did) then most everybody's at a standstill. Long coffee breaks occurred and did. It was the nature of the beast.

hsehestedt · Saturday at 10:35 PM

cheaterslick said:
They can only update to 23H2 or 24H2 and can't update beyond that

That has nothing to do with a TPM. I run Windows on many systems with NO TPM, not 2.0 and not even 1.2.

cheaterslick · 2026-11-01T01:02:09-0400

hsehestedt said:
That has nothing to do with a TPM. I run Windows on many systems with NO TPM, not 2.0 and not even 1.2.

I only use TPM as an example here. It could be any set of instructions that shows up in CPU-Z.

Buddywh · 2026-11-01T08:11:05-0500

cheaterslick said:
I only use TPM as an example here. It could be any set of instructions that shows up in CPU-Z.

You might be referring to SSE4.2 and POPCNT, required CPU instruction sets for running Windows 11 builds 24H2, 25H2 and 26H2. These builds won't even install with a processor lacking them in the "normal" way we do it, which is telling the installer to ignore or not perform compatibility checks.

Scannerman · 2026-11-01T17:04:21-0500

Buddywh said:
You might be referring to SSE4.2 and POPCNT, required CPU instruction sets for running Windows 11 builds 24H2, 25H2 and 26H2. These builds won't even install with a processor lacking them in the "normal" way we do it, which is telling the installer to ignore or not perform compatibility checks.

I believe you are correct. For example, even though I used Microsoft's tutorial on how to install Win 11 on my X99 platform I cannot get past 23H2. Admittedly, I haven't attempted the Rufus method on this PC. The X299 build runs 26H2 just fine. If I need to do anything "sensitive" on the X99 I just boot to Linux. So far, this system has worked well for me.

Buddywh · 2026-11-01T17:16:19-0500

Scannerman said:
I believe you are correct. For example, even though I used Microsoft's tutorial on how to install Win 11 on my X99 platform I cannot get past 23H2. Admittedly, I haven't attempted the Rufus method on this PC. The X299 build runs 26H2 just fine. If I need to do anything "sensitive" on the X99 I just boot to Linux. So far, this system has worked well for me.

What CPU is in that system? I thought X99 was recent enough to have CPU's with SSE4.2.

Bree · 2026-11-01T17:26:12-0500

Scannerman said:
even though I used Microsoft's tutorial on how to install Win 11 on my X99 platform I cannot get past 23H2.

Buddywh said:
What CPU is in that system?

The X99 chipset supports the 5th and 6th gen Intel Core families: Intel® X99 Chipset Compatible Products | Intel
That would most likely mean it's the i7 6900K in Scannerman's profile. Any Intel Core from the 1st gen on has the SSE4.2 needed to run 24H2 an above.

Buddywh · 2026-11-01T17:30:32-0500

Scannerman said:
I hate to point this out but to the best of my knowledge TPM2 has already been hacked twice and security keys stolen to prove it....

I'd be interested in knowing more about that. I've never read of it, but of course I'm not by any means computing security professional... just an interested user.

What I do know is that the Windows Recovery environment has been (theoretically) compromised twice in a manner which would allow a hacker access to Bitlocker keys, not a hack of the TPM itself. The first such compromise was called Yellow Key, but even then it was just a 'proof of concept' and no one ever actually demonstrated it. I also don't know if that's what you might be referring to.

I was reading about hacking a TPM and most of the articles I run into all claim there's no known way to compromise its cryptographic secrets directly. It's mainly things like a side-channel attack to get the secrets. I don't know if Yellow Knife would be considered that because it exploited a weakness in the way WinRE works.

Scannerman · 2026-11-01T17:36:46-0500

Buddywh said:
I'd be interested in knowing more about that. I've never read of it, but of course I'm not by any means computing security professional... just an interested user.

What I do know is that the Windows Recovery environment has been (theoretically) compromised twice which would allow a hacker access to bitlocker keys, not a hack of the TPM itself. Even then it was just a 'proof of concept' and no one ever actually demonstrated it.

It was on Level 1 Techs (Links with Friends) months ago. I don't even bother posting these things anymore. Every time you turn around these days there seems to be a new hack to Windows. I mentioned this because I predicted that it wouldn't be long before TPM2 got hacked and lo and behold... TPM is old architecture. If they haven't figured out how to fix it by now they need to abandon it and move on to something less expensive and more effective. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a PC builder/repair guy.

Buddywh · 2026-11-01T17:46:33-0500

Scannerman said:
It was on Level 1 Techs (Links with Friends) months ago. I don't even bother posting these things anymore. Every time you turn around these days there seems to be a new hack to Windows. I mentioned this because I predicted that it wouldn't be long before TPM2 got hacked and lo and behold... TPM is old architecture. If they haven't figured out how to fix it by now they need to abandon it and move on to something less expensive and more effective. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a PC builder/repair guy.

People have a misguided ideal regarding computing security. It's really just like any other kind of security: the idea is to make the time and resources so great that an attacker isn't successful before being discovered or defeated by other means. If I go read about most of these exploits that are getting attention I've found they're very much non-trivial to carry out. It takes a very smart person with privileged, physical access to the system, and very often some time to carry out the process. I think we have to be a bit rational about it, and most aren't.

Scannerman · 2026-11-01T17:46:37-0500

Bree said:
The X99 chipset supports the 5th and 6th gen Intel Core families: Intel® X99 Chipset Compatible Products | Intel
That would most likely mean it's the i7 6900K in Scannerman's profile. Any Intel Core from the 1st gen on has the SSE4.2 needed to run 24H2 an above.

Yes, that is precisely the chip I'm referring to. That old work horse has served me well. Frankly, I wouldn't attempt moving on to 24H2 or higher on the X99 unless I were installing fresh, on a new drive. That would likely require me to use Rufus as MS no longer offers a cheat for this installation. It really is easier for me to boot to Linux to make financial transactions or deal with sensitive documents. I'm playing the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" game here on 23H2 and so far it seems to be working just fine.

Buddywh · 2026-11-01T19:06:18-0500

Scannerman said:
... require me to use Rufus as MS no longer offers a cheat for this installation...

So how did they do that.... did MS modify the installation process so it no longer respects the registry 'hack' that instructs it to ignore or not perform the compatibility tests?

I'm really not 'up' on the latest things for installing on unsupported hardware. I just know it's updating normally on both my Ryzen 1st gen system and FX6300 system so I'm good.

Scannerman · 2026-11-01T21:23:55-0500

Buddywh said:
So how did they do that.... did MS modify the installation process so it no longer respects the registry 'hack' that instructs it to ignore or not perform the compatibility tests?

Oh no, MS actually provided explicit instructions on how to hack the registry. This was of course for 22H2, I believe, so it has been a while. In addition to those explicit instructions they made it explicitly clear that should the user choose to use them that they did so at their own risk.

BUT here is my finding . . .

Anything you do to your PC with MS is at your own risk. IF you mess up what are gonna do? Sue them??? :lmao:

Have fun with that.

MS EULA is written in such a manner that if you so much as sneeze at your OS the wrong way the fault is entirely your own.

This is why MS security IMO is such a joke. Oh sure, they'll keep on providing those security updates because if the OS has a substantial failure rate people will simply stop using it. BUT... This should not be confused with MS being concerned about liability. Everyone who uses an MS OS does so at their own risk. This is why, IMO, the end user should be able to modify, edit, delete, terminate etc. their copy of a Windows OS on their own PC as much as they wish. (Of course what they do with it after ward could be a different matter if it can be proven that they're using it maliciously to affect other systems online.) That really should be the policy.

In nowise do I suggest that people should stop getting security updates. I'm just pointing out that the user does so (or doesn't) at their own risk.

Buddywh said:
I'm really not 'up' on the latest things for installing on unsupported hardware. I just know it's updating normally on both my Ryzen 1st gen system and FX6300 system so I'm good.

Congratulations! I think it's awesome when people find ways to make new software work on retro hardware.

With prices and ensh!tification of everything, how many of you are buying old hardware?

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