Solved Verifying Backup and Restore

jonnied12 · May 6, 2022

Bree said:
Macrium Reflect includes viBoot (even the Free version). This allows you to boot a Macrium image as a Hyper-V or VirtualBox VM. This is an alternative way to test that an image is viable, and takes just a few minutes to set up and boot to Windows.

That's the way I do it. One note though; On my laptop with a Samsung NVME drive, using the Samsung driver the backup would not start in VIboot or Hyper-V. The Image never failed verification though. I removed the Samsung driver and installed the Microsoft driver and all is well.

Haydon · May 7, 2022

cereberus said:
As I said earlier, the roots of verification date back to days when writing media were less reliable. If you think about it, now we do terabytes of writing to modern hard drives, and data loss is rare.

Far be it for me to advise that verification is not needed, but I would like to challenge users here when was the last time verification failed on modern hard drives. Even when I did do i6r, I cannot recollect a single instance on modern hard drives. For sure I used to get failures on bsckimg up to dvd drive (so last but one decade).

To me verification is more of a physcological activity, these days, predicated on historical use/experience.

Naturally, there is always a SODs law that will kick in i.e. because you failed to verify it, naturally, this is the one time the backup will be knackered LOL.

Reliability of backup media is of course an issue.

Reliability of backup tools/softwares is another issue, this thread focused mainly on this issue.

There are hordes of other backup issues:

Do you have a hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/yearly backup routine?

Is your backup routine flexible enough to allow for orderly manual overrides on an as needed basis?

Do you strictly follow a 1-2-3 rule of backup (1 master, 2 backups, 3 different media) or strictly follow some other backup rule?

Do you make sure that at least 1 backup is air gapped from your live system at all times?

Do you use two or more backup tools/softwares to make the respective backups on your backup media?

How do you best integrate your backup effort in your overall computing and (home) office/house keeping?

Do you have dated and ticked off checklists for backup chores, password maintenance, and the like, and do you keep a log of irregularities?
.
.
.
Then of course, in all of the above, how do you get the overall biggest bang for your limited buck?

Each one of the '?' in the above is worth its own thread, IMHO.

cereberus · May 7, 2022

jonnied12 said:
That's the way I do it. One note though; On my laptop with a Samsung NVME drive, using the Samsung driver the backup would not start in VIboot or Hyper-V. The Image never failed verification though. I removed the Samsung driver and installed the Microsoft driver and all is well.

Haydon said:
Reliability of backup media is of course an issue.

Reliability of backup tools/softwares is another issue, this thread focused mainly on this issue.

My point is these two are really integrally linked. As I said, back in days of optical drives, you needed for sure to verify as the media was unreliable to some degree. I have no concerns about the modern apps such as AOMEI Backupper or Macrium Reflect being 99.9999999+ % reliable in creating the temporary image data - the unreliability factor is the ACTUAL writing to the media.

So I reiterate my challenge to all users of mainstream imaging software - when was the last time you ever had a verification failure (and what media was it)?

In my opinion, verification now only serves as peace of mind, which is fine, but lets not kid ourselves, it is a truly essential activity. I fully accept that if you verify every backup, it will pick up the (say) one case in a thousand you would miss by not verifying. I say one in a thousand as I have literally done hundred of backups with Reflect

Haydon · May 7, 2022

cereberus said:
My point is these two are really integrally linked.

I don't think that's the case. Failure of the backup medium is primarily hardware-related. Fialure of the backup tool is primarily software-related. That's 2 different failure mechanisms.

For example, I once dropped a USB HDD and I could not access my backup. Even if I could repair the USB HDD and access the backup, I would no longer trust it as a backup medium. That's one failure mecchanism.

I never had a problem with Backup and Restore (Windows 7) until I read in this forum that it has been deprecated years ago. Even if the tool would still work (it actually did) I would still toss it as a backup tool (I actuallly did) and that's a failure which is a totally different one from dropping the USB HDD.

cereberus said:
I say one in a thousand as I have literally done hundred of backups with Reflect

And then there is the case of File History missing the hourly backups. I would say that it is more often than one in a thousand (from checking the 'Events' log, although not counting)

There is an easy workaround > manually running File History whenever you feel the need for it. But if you are raising the bar, then 'workaround' is not the word that you want to hear.

cereberus · May 7, 2022

Haydon said:
I don't think that's the case. Failure of the backup medium is primarily hardware-related. Fialure of the backup tool is primarily software-related. That's 2 different failure mechanisms.

For example, I once dropped a USB HDD and I could not access my backup. Even if I could repair the USB HDD and access the backup, I would no longer trust it as a backup medium. That's one failure mecchanism.

I never had a problem with Backup and Restore (Windows 7) until I read in this forum that it has been deprecated years ago. Even if the tool would still work (it actually did) I would still toss it as a backup tool (I actuallly did) and that's a failure which is a totally different one from dropping the USB HDD.

And then there is the case of File History missing the hourly backups. I would say that it is more often than one in a thousand (from checking the 'Events' log, although not counting)

There is an easy workaround > manually running File History whenever you feel the need for it. But if you are raising the bar, then 'workaround' is not the word that you want to hear.

Sigh - why not answer me and tell me the last time you had a verification failure?

Haydon · May 8, 2022

cereberus said:
Sigh - why not answer me and tell me the last time you had a verification failure?

Well, I told you about my 'Backup and Restore' mishaps, there is a 'Backup and Restore' forum on this site with more mishaps, then there is the MR Support Forum/Disk Imaging subforum with topics like:
'index verification failed on external USB drive'
'image failed to reproduce windows start menu and applications'
'Creepy image errors not getting logged'
etc.

Note that a failed restore is a failed verification.

cereberus · May 8, 2022

Haydon said:
Well, I told you about my 'Backup and Restore' mishaps, there is a 'Backup and Restore' forum on this site with more mishaps, then there is the MR Support Forum/Disk Imaging subforum with topics like:
'index verification failed on external USB drive'
'image failed to reproduce windows start menu and applications'
'Creepy image errors not getting logged'
etc.

Note that a failed restore is a failed verification.

Nearly all mishaps are either user error or the media is damaged in some way. Verification is a specific process run after the backup has (allegedly) been done without any error messages. It is essentially like verifying the sha of an iso download.

All the other failures have nothing to do with verification.

So for the final time, when was the last time you had a verification failure, and what media were you using.

a) within last month

b) within last year

c) within last five years

d) over five years (or never).

Haydon · May 8, 2022

cereberus said:
Nearly all mishaps are either user error or the media is damaged in some way. Verification is a specific process run after the backup has (allegedly) been done without any error messages. It is essentially like verifying the sha of an iso download.

All the other failures have nothing to do with verification.

So for the final time, when was the last time you had a verification failure, and what media were you using.

a) within last month

b) within last year

c) within last five years

d) over five years (or never).

That's a very narrow definition of verification, no wonder that you want just about everything to pass verification according to that very narrow definition.

In the real world, a restored image passes verification or not, nothing else matters, and according to this real world definition of verification, there are daily problems on the forums.

cereberus · May 8, 2022

Haydon said:
That's a very narrow definition of verification, no wonder that you want just about everything to pass verification according to that very narrow definition.

In the real world, a restored image passes verification or not, nothing else matters, and according to this real world definition of verification, there are daily problems on the forums.

Whatever. Not prepared to discuss anymore if you cannot/will not answer a simple question.

Haydon · May 8, 2022

cereberus said:
Whatever. Not prepared to discuss anymore if you cannot/will not answer a simple question.

? In the real world definition of the word 'verification' of backups, there are daily problems on the forums.

That's the simple answer to the simple question, posted in the above.

cereberus · May 8, 2022

Haydon said:
? In the real world definition of the word 'verification' of backups, there are daily problems on the forums.

That's the simple answer to the simple question, posted in the above.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Wynona · May 8, 2022

Bree said:
Well, the very first step is to enable Hyper-V in Windows Features if you have Pro, or install VirtualBox if you have Home. Reflect v8 supports both, if you have v7 then it only supports Hyper-V.

Then it's simply a matter of running viBoot and selecting the .mrimg file you wish to boot as a VM. There's a Ten Forums tutorial for that:

Macrium viBoot - Create Virtual Machine using Macrium Image

How to Create Hyper-V Virtual Machine using Macrium Reflect System Image

www.tenforums.com

Good morning, Bree.

I went to the tutorial above and found that it was last updated in November 2019. I didn't see anything indicating VirtualBox. (I think Kari generally only uses what's included in Windows, so no surprise there.)

I'm pretty sure that most of my students will have Windows Home, so they'll need instructions for Virtual Box. I couldn't find anything in Windows 11 Tutorials.

jonnied12 · May 8, 2022

cereberus said:
Nearly all mishaps are either user error or the media is damaged in some way. Verification is a specific process run after the backup has (allegedly) been done without any error messages. It is essentially like verifying the sha of an iso download.

All the other failures have nothing to do with verification.

So for the final time, when was the last time you had a verification failure, and what media were you using.

a) within last month

b) within last year

c) within last five years

d) over five years (or never).

I've had several verification errors using Macrium to backup to my NAS wirelessly. Not every time but maybe three times. I now always use an ethernet cable anytime I back up any of my three computers to the NAS. Never had a failure doing that.
I also have never had a verification error when backing up to an external SSD hard drive.

cereberus · May 8, 2022

jonnied12 said:
I've had several verification errors using Macrium to backup to my NAS wirelessly. Not every time but maybe three times. I now always use an ethernet cable anytime I back up any of my three computers to the NAS. Never had a failure doing that.
I also have never had a verification error when backing up to an external SSD hard drive.

Yeah wifi backup is probably the one mode where verification is important as signal strength can have a big impact.

Bree · May 8, 2022

Wynona said:
I went to the tutorial above and found that it was last updated in November 2019. I didn't see anything indicating VirtualBox.

Kari intends to update Reflect tutorials now that v8 Free is available, but I understand health issues have delayed that.

Yes, support for VirtualBox is new for viBoot v8. Very little else has changed in viBoot since the tutorial was last updated, and using it with VirtualBox works the same way as using it with Hyper-V, so the tutorial is still relevant.

For more on this, see Macrium's video here:

Macrium viBoot

Instantly create, start and manage Microsoft Hyper-V and VirtualBox virtual machines from Macrium Reflect images.

www.macrium.com

And see the Knowledge Base:

Macrium viBoot - Knowledgebase 8.0 - Macrium Reflect Knowledgebase

knowledgebase.macrium.com

Wynona · May 9, 2022

Bree said:
Kari intends to update Reflect tutorials now that v8 Free is available, but I understand health issues have delayed that.

Yes, support for VirtualBox is new for viBoot v8. Very little else has changed in viBoot since the tutorial was last updated, and using it with VirtualBox works the same way as using it with Hyper-V, so the tutorial is still relevant.

For more on this, see Macrium's video here:

Macrium viBoot

Instantly create, start and manage Microsoft Hyper-V and VirtualBox virtual machines from Macrium Reflect images.

www.macrium.com

And see the Knowledge Base:

Macrium viBoot - Knowledgebase 8.0 - Macrium Reflect Knowledgebase

knowledgebase.macrium.com

Thank you, @Bree! I'm going to try this now. Looks like it may be what I'm looking for.

Wynona · May 9, 2022

Wynona said:
Thank you, @Bree! I'm going to try this now. Looks like it may be what I'm looking for.

Bree said:
Kari intends to update Reflect tutorials now that v8 Free is available, but I understand health issues have delayed that.

Yes, I know. Wishing @Kari all the best and a speedy recovery. I've used his tutorials for several years and they always help.

Thanks for showing me how to use this one too!

Bree said:
For more on this, see Macrium's video here:

Macrium viBoot

Instantly create, start and manage Microsoft Hyper-V and VirtualBox virtual machines from Macrium Reflect images.

www.macrium.com

And see the Knowledge Base:

Macrium viBoot - Knowledgebase 8.0 - Macrium Reflect Knowledgebase

knowledgebase.macrium.com

cereberus · May 9, 2022

Wynona said:
Thank you, @Bree! I'm going to try this now. Looks like it may be what I'm looking for.

Bear in mind, if you have Pro on PC and using Hyper-V, virtualbox and Hyper-v do not coexist that well.

Virtualbox is very slow if Hyper-V is enabled.

When using Pro, viboot works better in Hyper-V than virtualbox (in my tests).

So, I recommend you use Hyper-V in Pro, Virtualbox in Home.

If you really want to use virtualbox in Home, better to disable Hyper-V.

Wynona · May 9, 2022

cereberus said:
Bear in mind, if you have Pro on PC and using Hyper-V, virtualbox and Hyper-v do not coexist that well.

Virtualbox is very slow if Hyper-V is enabled.

When using Pro, viboot works better in Hyper-V than virtualbox (in my tests).

So, I recommend you use Hyper-V in Pro, Virtualbox in Home.

If you really want to use virtualbox in Home, better to disable Hyper-V.

Wow! This machine came with Windows 10 Pro. I dual boot, and for some reason, I seem to have installed Windows 11 Home! :ffs:

So, it seems I won't have to deal with Hyper-V since it's not available in my Windows 11 partition. I know there are ways to install Hyper-V in Windows 11 Home, but I'm not going there.

I've done my research and understand that I will need VirtualBox to create a virtual HDD/Desktop in this Home version.

I guess you could call this serendipity, since I'm in "the same boat" with my students. :)

cereberus · May 9, 2022

Wynona said:
Wow! This machine came with Windows 10 Pro. I dual boot, and for some reason, I seem to have installed Windows 11 Home!

So, it seems I won't have to deal with Hyper-V since it's not available in my Windows 11 partition. I know there are ways to install Hyper-V in Windows 11 Home, but I'm not going there.

I've done my research and understand that I will need VirtualBox to create a virtual HDD/Desktop in this Home version.

I guess you could call this serendipity, since I'm in "the same boat" with my students. :)

It is a little known quirk that a Pro digital licence will activate Home, so it is not surprising you did not spot it.

I think you are ok by your serendipitious situation but I am not 100% certain if bios virtualisation settings will interfere but I don't think so. Only one way to find out ...