Solved Hey hardware guys. Need advice on m.2 drive

Flashorn · Oct 10, 2023

Scannerman said:
My curiosity was killing me so I ordered one.

So, now you're gonna hafta post this in the
Order Placed! - (Your latest online purchase.)

Scannerman · Oct 11, 2023

Flashorn said:
So, now you're gonna hafta to post this in the
Order Placed! - (Your latest online purchase.)

Done

hdmi · Oct 11, 2023

pparks1 said:
While that second drive does indeed have slower sequential write speeds, unless you are regularly writing GB's and GB's of files, you probably aren't even going to notice the difference between those two drives during normal day to day, real world tasks.

Sandboxie-Plus can tend to generate a lot of data on the ramdisk pretty fast if multiple sandboxed processes are running concurrently in such a way that SbieDrv.sys has to copy the data either from the SSD or from the ramdisk to the sandbox location, which, due to the FileRootPath setting, is on the ramdisk. As a result of the processes running sandboxed, data located outside the sandbox can (by default) only be modified by them after it is copied to the sandbox so only the copies will be modified, the goal here being that the original data is left untouched (by default, i.e. unless specified otherwise in the settings). The SbieDrv.sys just copies the data automatically to the sandbox where/when needed to achieve this, albeit other processes are also allowed to write/modify data in the sandbox(es) by default.

So, to free up enough space in RAM when needed, bulk transfers from the ramdisk to the SSD have to occur for those specific parts of the data that still need to be preserved (i.e. as opposed to need to be deleted), which is easy to achieve with FastCopy, as FastCopy supports command line parameters so it can be run from within simple batchfiles, which, in turn, can be run by Task Scheduler like how I earlier described, for example. Nothing's abnormal or extraordinary about any of this IMO, it's just a real world example of how having large sequential writes happening, sometimes in rapid succession and for fairly prolonged periods of time, on an SSD can still make perfect real world sense, and can make perfect real world sense regardless of whether you run SQL Server (or whether you run some other abnormality from Microsoft, of which I'm sure we can all agree there are plenty to choose between...).

To clarify, there's pros and there's cons to using a ramdisk, just like there's pros and cons to using a part of the RAM for enhanced caching to improve on the disk cache of Windows (combined with the built-in cache of the SSD hardware of course). For example, there's this:
• Better targeted than PrimoCache, given the same memory amount. Primo Ramdisk can accelerate only the required files or directories, while PrimoCache targets the entire logical volume.

ROMEX SOFTWARE Knowledge Base - Primo Ramdisk Vs. PrimoCache

You could always decide to use the combination of both Primo Ramdisk and PrimoCache, as Romex designed them to be compatible with each other. It isn't free software, but there exist free alternative choices like ImDisk.

Either way, choosing to sequentially write medium-large amounts of data from a ramdisk to the SSD can help with performance in a whole number of cases, if you can figure out what files to target when, under which circumstances (and, consequently, when to stop targeting them) and you can figure out how to avoid running out of available free physical RAM space. Among other type strategies, DymaxIO also transforms frequent (many), small, split random I/O Operations (IOPS) into less frequent (fewer) large, contiguous sequential IOPS to optimize SSD performance, but that's a different story.

Maverik · Oct 12, 2023

Ghot said:
I feel the need... the need for speed.

OK, since we're posting speeds. Here is the CrystalDisk measurement for my read-only Samsumg 1Tb 990 Pro NVME.
The NVME exploded after performing the read test.

P.S. Just kidding, of course. :ROFLMAO:

Ghot · Oct 12, 2023

Maverik said:
Here is the CrystalDisk measurement for my read-only Samsumg 1Tb

Truly lazy is he, that only does the 1st Read test.

Maverik · Oct 12, 2023

Ghot said:
Truly lazy is he, that only does the 1st Read test.

View attachment 73937

Yes, I forgot to "use the force".
I don't have a heat sync on my NVME, so it was 138 degrees fahrenheit when completed.
Running the usual ton of background apps as well.

P.S. I have now put my light saber away...

pparks1 · Oct 12, 2023

hdmi said:
Sandboxie-Plus can tend to generate a lot of data on the ramdisk pretty fast if multiple sandboxed processes are running concurrently in such a way that SbieDrv.sys has to copy the data either from the SSD or from the ramdisk to the sandbox location, which, due to the FileRootPath setting, is on the ramdisk. As a result of the processes running sandboxed, data located outside the sandbox can (by default) only be modified by them after it is copied to the sandbox so only the copies will be modified, the goal here being that the original data is left untouched (by default, i.e. unless specified otherwise in the settings). The SbieDrv.sys just copies the data automatically to the sandbox where/when needed to achieve this, albeit other processes are also allowed to write/modify data in the sandbox(es) by default.

So, to free up enough space in RAM when needed, bulk transfers from the ramdisk to the SSD have to occur for those specific parts of the data that still need to be preserved (i.e. as opposed to need to be deleted), which is easy to achieve with FastCopy, as FastCopy supports command line parameters so it can be run from within simple batchfiles, which, in turn, can be run by Task Scheduler like how I earlier described, for example. Nothing's abnormal or extraordinary about any of this IMO, it's just a real world example of how having large sequential writes happening, sometimes in rapid succession and for fairly prolonged periods of time, on an SSD can still make perfect real world sense, and can make perfect real world sense regardless of whether you run SQL Server (or whether you run some other abnormality from Microsoft, of which I'm sure we can all agree there are plenty to choose between...).

To clarify, there's pros and there's cons to using a ramdisk, just like there's pros and cons to using a part of the RAM for enhanced caching to improve on the disk cache of Windows (combined with the built-in cache of the SSD hardware of course). For example, there's this:
• Better targeted than PrimoCache, given the same memory amount. Primo Ramdisk can accelerate only the required files or directories, while PrimoCache targets the entire logical volume.

ROMEX SOFTWARE Knowledge Base - Primo Ramdisk Vs. PrimoCache
You could always decide to use the combination of both Primo Ramdisk and PrimoCache, as Romex designed them to be compatible with each other. It isn't free software, but there exist free alternative choices like ImDisk.

Either way, choosing to sequentially write medium-large amounts of data from a ramdisk to the SSD can help with performance in a whole number of cases, if you can figure out what files to target when, under which circumstances (and, consequently, when to stop targeting them) and you can figure out how to avoid running out of available free physical RAM space. Among other type strategies, DymaxIO also transforms frequent (many), small, split random I/O Operations (IOPS) into less frequent (fewer) large, contiguous sequential IOPS to optimize SSD performance, but that's a different story.

Exactly, in a very specific use case the added speed can be noticeable. In most day to day real world tasks that many of us perform on our PC's, we aren't going to see much change between a write speed of 2,000MB/sec versions 3,000MB/sec. But we all have that desire to see the highest numbers possible on the benchmark...I certainly understand that.

Maverik · Oct 12, 2023

glasskuter said:
@Flashorn Yeah I noticed that note on the page of the software.

Here's the deal. This system came from Dell with raid on although I do not use raid.
I've read a lot about IRST today and don't mind saying removing it scares the pee-waddling-do out of me. It's not as simple as just changing to AHCI. Intel site says one can uninstall the IRST app with no problem (In fact I don't even have the app installed), but uninstalling the driver requires a clean install. That would take me days to complete.

I did find this procedure how to change to AHCI..

Click the Start Button and type cmd

Right-click the result and select Run as administrator

Type this command and press ENTER: bcdedit /set {current} safeboot minimal (ALT: bcdedit /set safeboot minimal)

Restart the computer and enter BIOS Setup

Change the SATA Operation mode to AHCI from either IDE or RAID

Save changes and exit Setup and Windows will automatically boot to Safe Mode.

Right-click the Windows Start Menu once more. Choose Command Prompt (Admin).

Type this command and press ENTER: bcdedit /deletevalue {current} safeboot (ALT: bcdedit /deletevalue safeboot)

Reboot once more and Windows will automatically start with AHCI drivers enabled.

From what I've found so far, IRST installs 12 drivers/dlls/services.. Even if I am able to change to AHCI, these would still be on my system.
I really don't like that. I had this bright idea I could boot from a Linux distro and delete those 12 files but...God knows how many registry entries there are,
and who knows what shape my system would be in if I did.

I'm going to wait and see if Soldigm support responds but I'm beginning to think I should leave well enough alone..

OK, as usual, I'm late to the party. I have 4 Dell precision laptops, and a Dell Latitude. So I have some experience with Dell laptops.

Note: Before you do anything like this, have a backup of your SSD/NVME and the software needed to restore the backup on a bootable USB drive.

Upon examining the above procedure, it says you need to set your PC to boot into safe mode, then reboot your PC, tap F12 to enter your BIOS setup, change your BIOS setting from RAID to AHCI, and finish booting into safe mode. Then, while in safe mode, you must reset your PC back to boot to normal mode, and reboot. Suddenly, the impression is that your PC will be using the IRST driver in AHCI mode, or the native Microsoft SATA driver for your NVME, which is false. An NVME is a PCIe device, not a SATA device. If the SATA driver still loads, it's because you have some other SATA devices (e.g. a CDRom or whatever) in your system.

Firstly, safe mode isn't needed. The Windows 11 Plug-and-Plag (PNP) installer does the job, after you go into your BIOS, and transition from RAID to AHCI, and then finish rebooting. Windows 11 should load a native microsoft storage driver for your NVME (Standard NVM Express Controller). You'll find this driver in device manager under "Storage Controllers". This is your NVME driver.

Secondly, you can look at your driverset with a utility called Driver Store Explorer. You can add or remove drivers with this utility. You can see which drivers are used and which are unused. You can also force-delete unused drivers.

Release DriverStore Explorer v0.11.92 · lostindark/DriverStoreExplorer

Add support for extension id and improve logging. Update dependency packages. Turkish Language.

github.com

https://github.com/lostindark/DriverStoreExplorer/releases/download/v0.11.92/DriverStoreExplorer.v0.11.92.zip

For now, my thinking is that you are hesitant to switch from RAID to AHCI out of a fear that your system won't boot. Whenever there has been a boot "hang", I've just held down the power key for 5 seconds which shuts the power off. Then I would redo a cold boot. You may need to reboot a couple of times and eventually the laptop boots into Windows in AHCI mode without a clean install. And even if that doesn't work, you can reinstall the boot records from the Rufus USB. This is a more extensive procedure, that you may not wish to deploy.

Even if you stay in RAID mode, your system won't run slower than AHCI. So if you choose to do nothing, you'll be OK.
But remember, an NVME drive uses a different interface than SATA. If you don't have any SATA devices in your system, a SATA driver isn't even needed.

It's still All Good!

Scannerman · Oct 12, 2023

Maverik said:
OK, as usual, I'm late to the party. I have 4 Dell precision laptops, and a Dell Latitude. So I have some experience with Dell laptops.

Note: Before you do anything like this, have a backup of your SSD/NVME and the software needed to restore the backup on a bootable USB drive.

Upon examining the above procedure, it says you need to set your PC to boot into safe mode, then reboot your PC, tap F12 to enter your BIOS setup, change your BIOS setting from RAID to AHCI, and finish booting into safe mode. Then, while in safe mode, you must reset your PC back to boot to normal mode, and reboot. Suddenly, the impression is that your PC will be using the IRST driver in AHCI mode, or the native Microsoft SATA driver for your NVME, which is false. An NVME is a PCIe device, not a SATA device. If the SATA driver still loads, it's because you have some other SATA devices (e.g. a CDRom or whatever) in your system.

Firstly, safe mode isn't needed. The Windows 11 Plug-and-Plag (PNP) installer does the job, after you go into your BIOS, and transition from RAID to AHCI, and then finish rebooting. Windows 11 should load a native microsoft storage driver for your NVME (Standard NVM Express Controller). You'll find this driver in device manager under "Storage Controllers". This is your NVME driver.

Secondly, you can look at your driverset with a utility called Driver Store Explorer. You can add or remove drivers with this utility. You can see which drivers are used and which are unused. You can also force-delete unused drivers.

Release DriverStore Explorer v0.11.92 · lostindark/DriverStoreExplorer

Add support for extension id and improve logging. Update dependency packages. Turkish Language.

github.com

https://github.com/lostindark/DriverStoreExplorer/releases/download/v0.11.92/DriverStoreExplorer.v0.11.92.zip

For now, my thinking is that you are hesitant to switch from RAID to AHCI out of a fear that your system won't boot. Whenever there has been a boot "hang", I've just held down the power key for 5 seconds which shuts the power off. Then I would redo a cold boot. You may need to reboot a couple of times and eventually the laptop boots into Windows in AHCI mode without a clean install. And even if that doesn't work, you can reinstall the boot records from the Rufus USB. This is a more extensive procedure, that you may not wish to deploy.

Even if you stay in RAID mode, your system won't run slower than AHCI. So if you choose to do nothing, you'll be OK.
But remember, an NVME drive uses a different interface than SATA. If you don't have any SATA devices in your system, a SATA driver isn't even needed.

It's still All Good!

Glad to learn I'm not the only 'Farmer in the Dell' here. I still have half a dozen of the things, all perfectly functional and upgraded multiple times. My last Dell purchase was a touch screen laptop, which could have been money better spent, but I digress. I think you nailed it in your statement about NVMe being a PCIe device. Every PC I've ever worked on with RAID activated in BIOS, or EFI, or UEFI, still allows for regular non-raid usage. Even at this stage, if the user wants a RAID array they will still have to configure the drives for RAID. With Intel this can be done the old fashioned way, directly from the "BIOS" via CTRL/"I" or, it can be done with IRST software. To run RAID via NVMe involves more settings in the UEFI such as bifurcation. This of course assumes that the platform supports NVMe in RAID and is still a rather niche use of RAID at the domestic end user level.

The old cliche, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" seems to apply here and there's a good reason that cliche lives on. To do all that work just to go back to AHCI and risk complications along the way seems a waste of time and energy, if not an open opportunity to invite further complications to the system. I recommend leaving well enough alone. Most systems still have a SATA drive or two in them even when they use NVMe. Options aren't really a bad thing to keep either. :wink:

hdmi · Oct 13, 2023

pparks1 said:
Exactly, in a very specific use case the added speed can be noticeable. In most day to day real world tasks that many of us perform on our PC's, we aren't going to see much change between a write speed of 2,000MB/sec versions 3,000MB/sec. But we all have that desire to see the highest numbers possible on the benchmark...I certainly understand that.

My point was that a $15 price difference looks like it is the bigger difference of the two, because you're looking at SSD prices that either belong in the typical "low-cost" price bracket or are close enough to it, like, $70 versus only $55 so as a result you're looking at 27%, when the reality is that you need to be looking at the impact that $15 has on the entire budget. As an example, $15 spent extra over the course of 3 years translates to an added cost of $5 each year so, if we can assume for just a moment that, on average, you're spending $500 annually on hardware plus software plus the power consumption, then it translates to only a one percent increase of the total cost. The 27% number is just a distraction, the 1% number is the only number that counts. As a result, even if the overall, real-world speed improvement combined with all the other benefits such as, for example, not having to rely on a proprietary driver from Solidigm and not lacking a heatsink translates to only 2% improvement and/or benefit, in the end, you're still going to have to accept the fact that the 1% number is only half of this 2% number. I can totally understand the reason why you fell victim to the numbers game.

Back when Intel had released Sandy Bridge and people wanted to build theirself a new rig, many were assuming that 1600MHz RAM was the sweet spot, the speed difference between 1866MHz RAM and it being "barely noticeable" and "fading into the distant landscape" as a so-called result of "diminishing returns" when compared to the ~$20 difference in price that appeared to be more significant than the overall difference in real-world speed. The reality is that the 1866MHz RAM choice was almost always better value-for-money indeed, for the same reasons I explained above.

hdmi · Oct 13, 2023

Maverik said:
Even if you stay in RAID mode, your system won't run slower than AHCI.

Solidigm says the opposite is true.

Maverik · Oct 13, 2023

hdmi said:
Solidigm says the opposite is true.

The difference in performance is not significant enough to warrant a clean install of Windows 11, regardless of what a support rep at Solidigm says.

I’ve seen Raid out-perform AHCI, and vice-versa. I’ve also seen BIOS\MBR disk layouts out-perform UEFI\GPT layouts. It depends on the hardware and drivers.

Try not to lose sleep over it…

hdmi · Oct 13, 2023

Maverik said:
The difference in performance is not significant enough to warrant a clean install of Windows 11, regardless of what a support rep at Solidigm says.

I get that. But my point was that, had the OP chosen to go for the Samsung 980 PRO instead of this Solidigm, there would be no difference in performance. Which, as a matter of true fact, there is. Again, it adds to the list of reasons why I voted for the Samsung 980 PRO. Hopefully this will help others who might stumble across this thread in the future more easily separate fact from fiction. The fact being, sometimes, you really only get what you paid for. Earlier this year in February the 1TB Solidigm P41 Plus was just under $40 on Amazon.com, but then it went up to $55 whereas the price of the 1TB Samsung 980 PRO with heatsink had come down to $70 so it was only $15 more expensive than the Solidigm at the time when I first posted about it in this thread.

Maverik said:
I’ve seen Raid out-perform AHCI, and vice-versa. I’ve also seen BIOS\MBR disk layouts out-perform UEFI\GPT layouts. It depends on the hardware and drivers.

Try not to lose sleep over it…

My point was that, to get the most out of the Solidigm P41 Plus, it requires to use the proprietary driver from Solidigm so, as a consequence it also requires the RST to be removed first, and, the latter can only be done, reliably, by going for a clean install of Windows.

Scannerman · Oct 13, 2023

glasskuter said:
Yes, when one uses the P44 Pro, Fast Lane does not presently work even if one does use the Solidgm driver. It currently works for P41 only.

Yes, drive performance is affected when one uses any storage controller driver other than Solidgm storage controller. He was unable to give me a ballpark estimate of how much it was affected. ( One would think their research would have this information)

So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth..

So if this should be the case, then I would recommend leaving the system as it is. I think glasskuter made the best choice in this regard as the slight increase in read and write speeds will be so negligible that it won't even be noticeable in real time usage even if the software worked in her case. Now as an enthusiast this might warrant the extra tinkering provided that the software actually works with the hardware, but this is yet another user preference approach not entirely unlike over clockers competing with one another for those extra couple of seconds of performance.

Glasskuter has already made it clear in sundry communications that what she wanted was a reliable, budget worthy, efficient NVMe drive and there are many of them on the market as we already know. Given the Crystal Disk Mark stats she provided I would say that she has made a superb choice for her PCIe Gen 3 platform and currently sits well ahead of average if not excellent in this regard. Given the age of the system board and all that goes with it I'd say she's likely good for another decade.

Myself, having a trickle of the enthusiast in me, committed to the purchase hdmi has made because I'd really like to see what SAMSUNG 980 Pro will do on my Gen 4 platform at some point. I'm still waiting for that stick of silicon to come home but I'm in no rush. I'm just curious. (Plus I got it at one heckuva good price, given the current Canadian market.) Again: All of this boils down to user preference.

glasskuter · Oct 13, 2023

@Scannerman You got it exactly right. I'm not a hardware enthusiast, but a Windows junkie. The next time I clean install, I'll get rid of IRST and install Solidigm's driver. That will be when Windows 12 comes out, assuming MS does not knock my 10th gen cpu off its compatibility list.

There is a lot of good hardware out there and there are always arguments on both sides. Personally, I try to make decisions based on need, cost, and efficiency and do tend to stress over any upgrade I make. That be the case, one might ask why I have this system which is more computer than I need. A stock i5 would be much better suited for what I do. Well, it was strictly an impulse buy.

In my entire computing life I've never used anything but business grade computers, always rebuilding used Optiplexes and Precisions due to their dependability. I had never owned a new one due to cost. A couple of years ago I was searching for a PC for a friend and came across this one on Dell's 'scratch & dent' site. For $700 I felt it was a steal. Did I need it? No.
Not once in all the time I've had it has the darn thing ever hyperthreaded. But now I can say I have owned ONE new computer in my life, allbeit one with a scratch on the case.

I know this has been a long extended thread but I think its findings might benefit anyone who comes across it who is looking to give their older system a boost. Thank you all for contributing. I do highly recommend this drive to others in the same boat as me. It was money and time well spent.

pparks1 · Oct 13, 2023

@hdmi, I get what you are saying about looking at the overall picture and the price spread out over time. At the same time, i never know what somebody's budget constraints or situations are either. For somebody on a really tight budget, $15 could make a difference, whereas if somebody has more funds available, $150 could be their equivalent to $15.

@glasskuter Glad you are happy with your drive. I try to not look back and dwell on the tech decisions I have made, like all the what-ifs. I also don't go back and look at prices....because it's almost always the case that I had I waited, it would have been faster or cheaper.

Maverik · Oct 13, 2023

hdmi said:
I get that. But my point was that, had the OP chosen to go for the Samsung 980 PRO instead of this Solidigm, there would be no difference in performance. Which, as a matter of true fact, there is. Again, it adds to the list of reasons why I voted for the Samsung 980 PRO. Hopefully this will help others who might stumble across this thread in the future more easily separate fact from fiction. The fact being, sometimes, you really only get what you paid for. Earlier this year in February the 1TB Solidigm P41 Plus was just under $40 on Amazon.com, but then it went up to $55 whereas the price of the 1TB Samsung 980 PRO with heatsink had come down to $70 so it was only $15 more expensive than the Solidigm at the time when I first posted about it in this thread.

My point was that, to get the most out of the Solidigm P41 Plus, it requires to use the proprietary driver from Solidigm so, as a consequence it also requires the RST to be removed first, and, the latter can only be done, reliably, by going for a clean install of Windows.

'Not gonna make any friends with this post...

This thread reminds me of what a fellow engineer told me once: "After all is said and done, more is said than done!" I can testify to the truthfulness of that statement from my experience in working at Intel, Micron, IMFlash, against competitors the-likes-of Samsung, and SK Hynix. And here I find myself getting hoovered-in to a lot of verbage, that is looking more and more like a small mutual admiration society. It's my fault for letting myself get sucked into this discussion. Why do I do this??? (Head banging on the wall...) With that being said, I'll try to get back to what is important about purchasing an NVME after someone has already made a purchase and may need to be told how wonderful their decision was, and flattered into feeling happy about it.

There are more factors, that should be considered, that go beyond, price, performance, and whether a proprietary driver is used to eek out a few percentage points in performance from an NVME that may be made from poor quality silicon that is going to go toes-up on you in a few years.

Some of this depends on your personal "values." If you are the sort of person that must stay in fashion by buying the newest smart phone every two years, where price is no object, and durability is unimportant (because you're going to buy that next new piece of technology before what-you-have wears out), and you're going to buy something to accessorize yourself so you can be in fashion with your blog friends, then what I have to say is only going to be elevator music to you!

If durability is unimportant to you, then you can stop reading now...

There's a reason why there are 90 day warranties, 3 year warranties, 5 year warranties, and limited lifetime warranties. There's thermal performance, MTBF, max TBW, and on and on. Measurements of durability, and what happens when a drive heats up. And there are issues of compatibility between the PC firmware, controller, and the drive. Who makes the storage chips? Who makes the controller? Is it the drive manufacturer or a farmed out to a contractor? Samsung makes their own silicon and their own controllers. Consider that.

So when I recommended Samsung, I already considered all this stuff which may seem unimportant to some people. So if my recommendations, after the purchase was made, and the party was over, do not make you feel good about your purchase then I apologize for being late in my remarks and making you feel bad about your purchase.

If you needed a Gen 3x4 and you bought a Gen 4x4, then that's not a big deal.
If you're stuck on RAID because Dell set your PC to RAID in the firmware, then you can complain to Dell about that.
You know what you need to do to get to AHCI.

BTW, you don't need to do a clean install to "reliably" remove an IRST driver. You can do that with Driver Store Explorer.

If you need to go further down the rabbit hole, to eek out more performance from your drivers, then you can explore the following forum where they mod drivers, when needed: