RAM uncertainty

sjc312 · Mar 1, 2023

Hi all

Despite uncertainty due to conflicting online reviews, I installed two 1.35volt Corsair CL18 ram sticks into an Asus Z790M board as part of a new build in an m-atx case. Initially, the board won’t boot, beeping ram issues. I reset CMOS and used just 1 stick and was able to boot into the BIOS. I immediately enabled XMP2 which made the mobo accept the ram’s voltage and then carried out a successful memtest86 with zero errors.

Having seen the thread below I know this does not mean the new build is safe from crashes etc.

What are the best settings from my RAM? - Page 1- Windows 10 Forums (tenforums.com)

Asus Prime and MSI Gaming plus boards had been specifically cited as having issues with 3600 ram. Also, I read somewhere that it’s best to disable XMP until Windows and all its initial updates are installed in order to avoid update errors. Is this true?

I have a couple of weeks to return the ram if I run into problems, so any advice would be much appreciated.

Board : Asus Z790M plus D4 (BIOS 0411)
RAM : Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3600 (2 x 16GB) CMK32GX4M2Z3600C18
Processor : Intel i5 12400
SSD : Samsung 980 Pro M.2 NVME 500GB
Graphics : Asus Dual NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 12GB (not yet installed)
Windows 11 Home (not yet installed)

Scannerman · Mar 5, 2023

XMP should be good. ASUS is generally very reliable that way although I'd venture these days you're just paying for a name when you buy Corsair RAM. Corsair of today isn't the same Corsair of yesteryears. XMP is supposed to be the safe way to achieve stable clock speeds. It shouldn't be an issue if you're using RAM already found in the QVL. If you're already having issues with that RAM on Win 10 with two sticks I'd recommend running a mem test and having a good look at it with both sticks installed. You shouldn't have to dial down your RAM. Can that microboard handle 32 GB? I've worked with many ASUS boards but never that one.

sjc312 · Mar 5, 2023

Thank you for the advice, Scannerman.

The boards manual says it can handle 128GB of DDR4 ram, and the successful memtest86 I ran on this new build was with both sticks (32GB). The sticks are not on the QVL list but I bought them as I need low profile, fast ram. I haven’t tested them on my Windows 10 pc.

The Corsair stuff you said made me laugh because unfortunately, the new PSU I got for this build is also Corsair. I will avoid the brand from now on.

I can now proceed on the build with some confidence.

Thanks again.

Scannerman · Mar 5, 2023

sjc312 said:
Thank you for the advice, Scannerman.

The boards manual says it can handle 128GB of DDR4 ram, and the successful memtest86 I ran on this new build was with both sticks (32GB). The sticks are not on the QVL list but I bought them as I need low profile, fast ram. I haven’t tested them on my Windows 10 pc.

The Corsair stuff you said made me laugh because unfortunately, the new PSU I got for this build is also Corsair. I will avoid the brand from now on.

I can now proceed on the build with some confidence.

Thanks again.

OKAY, I'll fess up. I already checked to see what that board can handle. I love the ASUS Haswell Z97 platform and two of my many daughters currently use it. My 11 year old is running a 4790K clocked @ 4.6 GHz on an ASUS GAMER PRO. The wife uses the Z87 Sabertooth and refuses to part with it because it has served her so well. Asus Z790M plus looks to be light years ahead of all that and I'm glad you got a chuckle from my comments.

You're prob okay with the Corsair PSU. IF Corsair ever made anything good it was their power supplies. They still make good cases too. I'm not suggesting you throw out the baby with the bathwater, but *cough* that RAM. I'm no stranger to that RAM. It isn't exactly known for its flexibility and there's a reason why it's "cheap". But if it works for you and it passes mem test then keep it. My experience with it is that it isn't that flexible. XMP would be your best bet because it's very tough to OC manually IMO, based on my personal experience.

IF your goal is to build a high performance machine you might want to consider some better B die RAM. Team Group T-FORCE used to put out some pretty solid B die RAM @ a very reasonable price, which I happen to be using on the rig I'm typing on right now. It's doing 3666 MHz with a CAS of 15-15-15. Yeah, I miss the old days when Corsair meant quality. My Corsair Platinum PSU is still running strong and my Dominator RAM never has an issue. (That's B die RAM too.) You picked a good sweet spot for your RAM - Not too slow and not too fast. Not sure why you were getting those beeps.

I'm guessing you're really going to enjoy building this unit. Just do it. I think you made a good choice in system boards because it's still too early for DDR5 and man, USB4! It's about time. lol

I've been waiting years to see USB4 finally make its debut on system boards. Keep us posted.

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

Although in no way complete, memory QVL for particular MB and CPU combo is most sure way to find 100% compatible RAM. Somewhat wider option is too look at composition of RAM in QVL (Rank, Frequency, latency, XMP and chip makers) specially last one as there are just few of them which differen RAM manufacturers just pack as own product. Kingston for instance mostly pack chips from Hynix and Samsung which in turn make own RAM sticks too.
CPU is important because IMC (Internal Memory Controller) is not on MB any more but as part of CPU.
MB because it nay have different memory path architecture even in same manufacturer's products specially with different chipsets. As BIOS is the one that regulates memory usage and setting it also plays large role.
RAM standards are outlined in JEDEC standards and XMP is just instructions (in RAM control chip) for BIOS ta make OC settings for particular RAM sticks. DDR4 for instance starts with 2133MHz and could be overclockead to as best XMP profile they have tested at what they consider is within normal parameters.
When installing RAM you also have to consider placement in proper slots as outlined in MB manual. Most now require A2 and B2 slots for dual channel.
Dual channel (or 2 x dual channel for all 4 sticks) is important for faster RAM operation. Consumer grade CPUs have 2 dual channel IMCs while server ones have a quad channel architecture,

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

Well stated, CountMike.

I believe there are three major manufacturers that produce silicon for RAM used at the domestic end user level. I think they are Samsung, Micron, and Hynix. (Not sure if Fox Con is another player or not.) Point being all the other brand names will get their chips from these suppliers and re-brand the same silicon that they get from manufacturers like Samsung. This is one more reason why being a brand name fan boi is often foolhardy. Ensuring that your memory for your system board is found on the QVL list is a very prudent move because this RAM has been tried and tested and rated for that system board. A QVL list will take a lot of guess work out of ensuring that you have the best memory for your system that suits your preferences.

Standard daily operations on PCs usually only require around 8 GB of RAM and rarely use more memory than this. Gaming requires a minimum of 16 GB in most cases but I've seen some gamers use more than this with extreme settings. Extreme gamers will typically use GFX cards that provide adequate memory for their needs but moderate gaming rarely needs more than 16 GB of on board memory.

Content creators and developers need all the RAM they can get and if you're into data recovery you'll likely discover having an extra 64 GB of RAM on board can be very handy. I've actually seen my work station actively use 119 GB of RAM so I make no apology for having 128 GB on board. So it really depends what you want to use your PC for. More is not necessarily better but it isn't always a bad thing either. 32 GB of RAM almost always results in a slight decrease in clock speeds as compared to 16 GB on board. With advancements in technology this may not always be the case but it has been my personal finding.

Over the years I've become a big fan of "B" die RAM and I'm not the only one. Yes, there's other RAM out there that is as good or better but I'm old and a little set in my ways. When I find a good thing I tend to stick with it. A QVL list should not be discounted regardless of what class of RAM one chooses for their system IMO.

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

Scannerman said:
Well stated, CountMike. I believe there are three major manufacturers that produce silicon for RAM used at the domestic end user level. I think they are Samsung, Micron, and Hynix. (Not sure if Fox Con is another player or not.) Point being all the other brand names will get their chips from these suppliers and re-brand the same silicon that they get from manufacturers like Samsung. This is one more reason why being a brand name fan boi is often foolhardy. Ensuring that your memory for your system board is found on the QVL list is a very prudent move because this RAM has been tried and tested and rated for that system board. A QVL list will take a lot of guess work out of ensuring that you have the best memory for your system that suits your preferences.

Standard daily operations on PCs usually only require around 8 GB of RAM and rarely use more memory than this. Gaming requires a minimum of 16 GB in most cases but I've seen some gamers use more than this with extreme settings. Extreme gamers will typically use GFX cards that provide adequate memory for their needs but moderate gaming rarely needs more than 16 GB of on board memory.

Content creators and developers need all the RAM they can get and if you're into data recovery you'll likely discover having an extra 64 GB of RAM on board can be very handy. I've actually seen my work station actively use 119 GB of RAM so I make no apology for having 128 GB on board. So it really depends what you want to use your PC for. More is not necessarily better but it isn't always a bad thing either. 32 GB of RAM almost always results in a slight decrease in clock speeds as compared to 16 GB on board. With advancements in technology this may not always be the case but it has been my personal finding.

Over the years I've become a big fan of "B" die RAM and I'm not the only one. Yes, there's other RAM out there that is as good or better but I'm old and a little set in my ways. When I find a good thing I tend to stick with it. A QVL list should not be discounted regardless of what class of RAM one chooses for their system IMO.

I chased RAM with b-die Samsung but found out that it's not only criteria, they make them in several "bins" according to quality. According to Samsung, their A-die is just as good or better and they were winding down b-die production. Hynix has similar grading with A or B-die, nothing worse than Samsung. I had Hynix m-die which supposedly wasn't as good but even with first Razen 1700x I had at that time on a x370 chipset MB it worked at full rated speed of 3000MHz and lower Cl than specified (Cl12 instead of I think 16) and so beet 3200 in overall performance.

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

CountMike said:
I chased RAM with b-die Samsung but found out that it's not only criteria, they make them in several "bins" according to quality. According to Samsung, their A-die is just as good or better and they were winding down b-die production. Hynix has similar grading with A or B-die, nothing worse than Samsung. I had Hynix m-die which supposedly wasn't as good but even with first Razen 1700x I had at that time on a x370 chipset MB it worked at full rated speed of 3000MHz and lower Cl than specified (Cl12 instead of I think 16) and so beet 3200 in overall performance.

I did think of mentioning binning but I decided to keep it simple. Yup. There's also crappy B die RAM out there and that's why I stated that there is some RAM that is as good or better than B die RAM. As a general rule of thumb B die is basically safe RAM but if it isn't on the QVL for the system one is building they should steer clear of it. (Another rule of thumb.) I've had my best results with B die RAM and that's why I recommend it. There are always exceptions. I know for a fact that Corsair puts out some crappy B die RAM and I think it's a shame because there is also excellent B die RAM on the market compliments of Samsung. That aside I have to say I'm very impressed with my TEAM GROUP T-FORCE B die RAM. I don't know if Samsung makes the silicon for this RAM but stepping is so easy on my HERO X570 and it's so flexible for manual clocking that I have to say it's better than my Corsair Dominator RAM in that regard. Perhaps it's a binning thing or perhaps it's just the silicon lottery. Here's a video from a fellow who seems to have made the same discoveries as us:

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

These things are happening only if one wants to get best performance possible beyond RAM being compatible at all. This is my third set of DDR4 on Ryzen system, I tend to go with Kingston fro compatibility with AMD, first one was with Kingstom 3000MHz which had pretty good Hynix m-die and worked very well and even better than expected being with first Ryzen which had IMC 2333MHz and x370 chipset (Asus Prime x370 pro) also known for not so good memory architecture so results surprised me running as well. 3000MHz Cl 12. When upgraded to Ryzen 3700x I also upgraded to Asus prime x470 pro which didn't have problem with faster memory. As Ryzen works better with fast RAM abd everybody said that 3600MHz is golden spot I got a pair of Vipers but one module was faulty so I swapped it for this Kingston. It indeed worked as per it's specs and a bit better but specs were not full as I expected, 3600MHz at CL18 turned out to work at Cl 16 but results were off from what other similar RAM with same chips would give, it's mainly that memory write and copy were about half from read speeds, which resulted i about 20% less performance,
Further tests showed that settings didn't work as with other b-die and that's how I found out (after some enquirers about binning, Also tried some old fashioned OC, got it up to 4000MHz but with atrocious CL 28 and other settings results were lower than these at 3600MHz Cl 16, 17, 17,18,36, So that's they are staying for now until probably next year's upgrade to Zen4 (7xxxx) and DDR5.
So, just pure compatibility even at promised frequency is one thing and not so difficult but getting full performance quite another, That requires some luck with silicone lottery, work and experimentation.

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

That is definitely some sweet OC you've got going there. I'm sure you'll agree those specs are not only outstanding but also exceptional.
Sorry to hear about the Viper Ram. They're generally pretty reliable as far as RAM goes. I believe the same company also makes TEAM GROUP. I'm getting a CAS of 15-15-15 @ 3666 MHz on a Ryzen 7 3800X stock cooled with 4.4 GHz on the chip with TEAM GROUP. I've heard that the X470 is a better board for OC than the X570 but I haven't really put my HERO to the test yet. Perhaps one day, when I have time. I'll be needing a better cooler first. KINGSTON is the most used RAM in my house, not only because they generally make good RAM but also because it's affordable. This is not to dis other brands. My wife's build uses RIPJAWS and her CAS rivals my own. Mind, she's using DDR3 so that's a whole different deal; but when I sit at her PC I can feel the difference and I know that her PC has plenty of years left on it yet.

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

It's "sweet" just because it was unexpectedly easy with relatively good results but not much of OC because IMC in 5000 series Ryzen is native 3200MHz and I would for sure like to have tighter timings, IMC in Ryzen 5000 can do 4000MHz+ and so can MB with newest BIOS, so it's far from max yet like some would say "Close enough for hand grenade". It will just have to do until next year, no point in sinking more money in EOL system.
Right now I'm just looking to replace only remaining HDD with an M.2 but that's the stuff that will work in next build too. Last thing I upgraded was GPU from Rx 570 that was truly obsolete and most probably will end up in new system too. Not playing any games that need any better one.

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

Yup. I'm guessing you made fresh install to Win 11? Win 11 really messed up my RX570 even though Windoze stated that the prerequisites were in order. Not in any rush to put it back on my gaming rig. Had better results installing Win 11 on a TPM1.2 platform — not that I'm recommending it should be on an Rx 470. I'm still of the persuasion that any new Windows OS should be compatible with PCs less than ten years old. I smell a big munny grab going on here.

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

Scannerman said:
Yup. I'm guessing you made fresh install to Win 11? Win 11 really messed up my RX570 even though Windoze stated that the prerequisites were in order. Not in any rush to put it back on my gaming rig. Had better results installing Win 11 on a TPM1.2 platform — not that I'm recommending it should be on an Rx 470. I'm still of the persuasion that any new Windows OS should be compatible with PCs less than ten years old. I smell a big munny grab going on here.

These windows were installed clean over 2 years ago, before that they were just update from W10 which in turn was update from a backup of W7 as for about a year I run w8/8.1 on another disk in dual boot with W7, When I upgraded from first Ryzen 1700x to 2700x W7 wouldn't run any more so I just made backup of it and used W8. My W8.1 was messed up by then so I restored W7 and immediately upgraded it to W10 ditching 8 all together, Finally I did clean W11 installation. When I upgraded GPU from Rx 570 to this Rx 6600 I didn't even change drivers until new driver version arrived. AMD makes drivers for several generations back, just adds to them for newer,
If you look at AMD divers site you can see that 23.2.2 works for all GPUs since Rx 470. Now up to Rx 7000,.

PerpetualCycle · Mar 6, 2023

CountMike said:
I chased RAM with b-die Samsung but found out that it's not only criteria, they make them in several "bins" according to quality. According to Samsung, their A-die is just as good or better and they were winding down b-die production. Hynix has similar grading with A or B-die, nothing worse than Samsung. I had Hynix m-die which supposedly wasn't as good but even with first Razen 1700x I had at that time on a x370 chipset MB it worked at full rated speed of 3000MHz and lower Cl than specified (Cl12 instead of I think 16) and so beet 3200 in overall performance.

What you can get from Samsung B-die is lots lower latency via overclocking. The better binned can run tCRD = tCL. You can get sub 40ns on 10th gen and earlier Intel.

I had a pretty good 4200 MHz overclock with a 2x16 b-die. But I wanted 2x32 64GB RAM, and only g,.skill made them, but unfortunately no longer do. So I got some 2x32 g.skill that has SK-Hynix Cjr die. Just can't match the latency of the b-die though. I probably can squeeze some more out of the Hynix, but I am tired of fiddling around with it.

Don't think the B-die was worth the price differential for me.

Samsung B-die (2x16 GB)

SK-Hynix Cjr (2x32 GB)

CountMike · Mar 6, 2023

This is best I could do to be 100% stable, clearly not best b-die out there although I didn't try with latest BIOS and AGESA 1208 code, Don't know what's equivalent with Intel

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

I'm running the Nitro + RX590 on an X570 HERO system board. It's the blue-shrouded special edition card. I'm pretty happy with it even if it is a little dated. I've since cloned the OS and I'm keeping that in cold storage for the time being. Perhaps when Win 10 is threatening EOL I'll clone it again and give Win 11 a second go. Hopefully by then most of the bugs for Win 11 will be worked out.

Scannerman · Mar 6, 2023

geneo said:
What you can get from Samsung B-die is lots lower latency via overclocking. The better binned can run tCRD = tCL. You can get sub 40ns on 10th gen and earlier Intel.

I had a pretty good 4200 MHz overclock with a 2x16 b-die. But I wanted 2x32 64GB RAM, and only g,.skill made them, but unfortunately no longer do. So I got some 2x32 g.skill that has SK-Hynix Cjr die. Just can't match the latency of the b-die though. I probably can squeeze some more out of the Hynix, but I am tired of fiddling around with it.

Don't think the B-die was worth the price differential for me.

The price for B-die probably wasn't worth it for you if you simply wanted to use your unit for gaming. Still, 4200 MHz is nothing to sneeze at and a well-configured 2x16 B-die kit can handle just about anything you throw at it. It would be enough to keep up with the most demanding GFX cards on the market today, so in light of future proofing maybe it was still worth it. In the end it really does come down to personal preference.

PerpetualCycle · Mar 6, 2023

Scannerman said:
The price for B-die probably wasn't worth it for you if you simply wanted to use your unit for gaming. Still, 4200 MHz is nothing to sneeze at and a well-configured 2x16 B-die kit can handle just about anything you throw at it. It would be enough to keep up with the most demanding GFX cards on the market today, so in light of future proofing maybe it was still worth it. In the end it really does come down to personal preference.

Acttually, hard-core gamers do want b-die because lower latency means more fps, especially minimum fps. Future proofing would be ddr5

Scannerman · Mar 7, 2023

geneo said:
Acttually, hard-core gamers do want b-die because lower latency means more fps, especially minimum fps. Future proofing would be ddr5

Depends. Gamers rarely need more than 32 GB of high frequency/low latency RAM on board. 64 GB would be a "future proofing" thing at best, or a senseless waste. Most might consider it a waste. I remember when 8 GB was considered a waste. In most cases you're already taking a modest hit in performance with 32 GB as compared to 16 of the same. I've tested this many times myself. This doesn't mean that in the future 32 GB won't be the preferred volume of RAM among gamers. I suspect it's already heading that way, but for the most part it's still overkill.

I'm a fan of B die RAM, not just for gaming. I like it for performance and stability. Timings tend to run tighter and B die is usually more durable. I don't even think I've ever had a stick of B die RAM die on me yet. (This is not to say that it doesn't happen.) I have 32 GB of B die RAM on my old gaming rig because I use it for more than gaming. I simply don't game enough to justify the cost of a gaming rig. Building my own gaming rig was a bucket list thing for me because I built so many gaming PCs for others. I wanted to build one for myself.

Ideally, DDR5 would be future proofing too. 128 GB of DDR5 would be uber future proofing and likely very impractical. I don't have any DDR5 units of my own and likely won't bother with that for another 5 years. If a client wanted me to build them a unit with DDR5 I'd build it if they insisted on having it but not until after they heard my cautionary spiel first. As Jayz 2 Cents has pointed out, the money could be better spent on other things.

PerpetualCycle · Mar 7, 2023

Scannerman said:
Depends. Gamers rarely need more than 32 GB of high frequency/low latency RAM on board. 64 GB would be a "future proofing" thing at best, or a senseless waste. Most might consider it a waste. I remember when 8 GB was considered a waste. In most cases you're already taking a modest hit in performance with 32 GB as compared to 16 of the same. I've tested this many times myself. This doesn't mean that in the future 32 GB won't be the preferred volume of RAM among gamers. I suspect it's already heading that way, but for the most part it's still overkill.

I'm a fan of B die RAM, not just for gaming. I like it for performance and stability. Timings tend to run tighter and B die is usually more durable. I don't even think I've ever had a stick of B die RAM die on me yet. (This is not to say that it doesn't happen.) I have 32 GB of B die RAM on my old gaming rig because I use it for more than gaming. I simply don't game enough to justify the cost of a gaming rig. Building my own gaming rig was a bucket list thing for me because I built so many gaming PCs for others. I wanted to build one for myself.

Ideally, DDR5 would be future proofing too. 128 GB of DDR5 would be uber future proofing and likely very impractical. I don't have any DDR5 units of my own and likely won't bother with that for another 5 years. If a client wanted me to build them a unit with DDR5 I'd build it if they insisted on having it but not until after they heard my cautionary spiel first. As Jayz 2 Cents has pointed out, the money could be better spent on other things.

I mentioned DDR5 because pretty soon there will not be boards offering DDR4, so DDR4 is not future proofing IMO.
What do you mean Samsung b-die is more durable? Where did you hear that? That you haven't had a stick with b-die fail on b-die is anecdotal and probably says more about the manufactuer and design of the memory board.